NDE Conspiracy - Who to Believe? What to Believe About Near Death Experiences?

WEBVTT

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From the time that they pronounced me that was

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a good 45 minutes They cut my clothes and then

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they paddled my heart my heart stopped and I

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could see people screaming and crying But I didn't

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realize that was actually my physical body because

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I was somewhere else The only thing that I could

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feel if you can imagine Absolute love and peace

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there wasn't anything else to be felt. I was

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greeted by people I'd known in the past I'm back

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home again. Incredibly safe and felt at home.

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Welcome, welcome to Round Trip Death, everybody.

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And I promise you today is going to be unlike

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any other episode that you've heard on this show

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before. Before I give that little preface, I

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want to say hi to Sean Tabot. How are you, Sean?

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I'm phenomenal, Eric. Been looking forward to

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this conversation and thanks for inviting me

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onto the show. I really appreciate it. Well,

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you're very welcome and and here's my little

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preface now So Sean reached out to the show a

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little while ago and he has a book out called

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NDE Conspiracy can we trust eyewitness accounts

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of heaven hell and the afterlife? So here's what

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I did today No pre -interview no nothing We are

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going into this just with I have no idea what's

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coming. You have no idea what's coming But such

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an interesting title to your book I don't know

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if you think NDEs are baloney or if you love

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them or something else But I know you've been

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studying them for a long time as I have been

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So let's jump right in and see where the heck

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this thing goes first of all explain the title,

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Can We Trust Eyewitness Accounts of Heaven, Hell

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and the Afterlife? Where are you going with that?

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It really parallels my own journey. I work in

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publishing and I've gotten to work with quite

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a few near -death experiencers, helping them

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pull together their books, you know, doing marketing,

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helping them get interviews, all the things.

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And I remember when I first acquired my earliest

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NDE books, I remember sitting in what you would

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call a publishing board meeting where the whole

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team says, does this book have merit? Is this

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a good investment? I remember the first one of

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those I sat in, I was skeptical. I was like,

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does somebody really need a book from a business

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executive who had an NDE? Is there something

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impactful that's going to come out of the story?

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And I really wrestled with it. It was like, I

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don't know if this makes sense to acquire. We

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ended up acquiring that book. And I went on to

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work on other books. That was like my first falling

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into this space was just in the context of the

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business I work in and trying to decide what

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books are worth publishing. I would go on later

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to partner with that author on a bunch of content,

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podcasts, interviewing other experiencers and

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such. But I came into this space very skeptical.

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Some of that does come out of, I worked in retail

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bookstores back in college. And there was a certain

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season where like the heaven tourism books, as

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we called them, were kind of popular. There were

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a few stories where people recanted their testimony,

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said, hey, I embellished, we made some things

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up. And so for me, having seen that in retail

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back in the late 90s, early 2000s, I was just

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skeptical of the space. I didn't really have

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a grid for it. And interestingly enough, Gosh

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seven eight years later from your first encountering

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some books and professional sense you know i've

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interviewed tons of people written a ton of research

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in the space so skeptical never intended to play

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or be in the space at all now it's just a big

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part of my life and has been in. I suspect i'll

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be researching writing in the space you know

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for the next few decades i just love it that's

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how i kind of fell into this space there was

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no plan. I'm sure I'd heard an NDE testimony

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here and there through the years, but yeah, it

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wasn't on my grid, wasn't on my bingo card. So

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where's your level of skepticism now? I don't

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have any skepticism about... I might have skepticism

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about some of the contents from the testimonies

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and stories people share in some of their near

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-death experiences. But, you know, as I began

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to do life with these authors who became my friends

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and I traveled with them to, you know, TV interviews

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and just... got to know them and see the fruit

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in their life and the impact that these experiences

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had on them. I really began to think, okay, these

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things feel like there's some legitimacy here.

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I really tried to judge a lot of it by, again,

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the fruit, the impact, how their lives were changed.

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And that really made me go, gosh, this must be

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real. And the longer I was in this space, the

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more I wanted to research and understand and

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meet more people. And so again, not skeptical

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that NDEs are real, but skeptical about some

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of the things I see in the space, some of the

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conversations and whatnot. So, but yeah, I'm

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100 % believe in NDE's are legitimate at this

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point. I probably didn't eight years ago. Yeah.

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So what things are you skeptical about that you

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hear? Probably one of the most surprising things

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for me and full disclosure, I work in the Christian

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publishing space. I mean, this is where I've

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made my career for the last 11 years. And so

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my introduction into these testimonies was what

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I would call a traditional heaven NDE We're a

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traditional hell NDE. And then, you know, you

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go to an INS conference because that's what one

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does when you want to learn more and find more

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conversations. Um, you start interviewing people

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like Mark Anthony, who has written multiple books

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in this space. And, you know, I think for me,

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I always look for opposing views, opposing voices,

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or people just having other parts of the conversation.

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And all of a sudden, you know, my eyes opened.

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I was like, Oh my gosh, there's all kinds of

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other conversations. happening around consciousness

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outside of these, what I would call these traditional

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NDEs that I had encountered just in my work through

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publishing. And so I went down this whole rabbit

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hole working on this last book of looking at

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past life memories, pre -life memories, people

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talking about alien abduction stories and do

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they relate to NDEs? at some of the INS events

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I went to, encountered psychics and mediums as

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keynote speakers. Again, things that are very

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foreign to the space that I operate in on a personal

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and professional basis, yet they're part of the

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conversation. Some of those things I encountered

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at the INS events I went to, definitely skeptical

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or have some worldview differences with some

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of those people, which is some of what I encounter

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in the book. A big focus for me is just discernment,

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understanding, can I create You know, systems

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and frameworks to help people process and kind

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of walk through like what, what's legitimate,

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like what's the good fruit you can take away

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from a person's testimony. If there's stuff that's

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a little suspect off different, you know, as

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I've learned how to operate in this space and

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try to understand what's going on. I try to build

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tools to help other people do the same. All right.

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Well, I've got a million questions stacking up

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here. So let's start with this one. How do you

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decide who to believe? I get asked that one all

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the time. The other thing that I run across is

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there's some people that I really believe. And

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then one part of their story comes up where I

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go, man, I believe like 90%. But when she just

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said such and such and such, I'm like, I don't

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know. So tell me where you come from on some

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of that. Like I've implied, I try to have frameworks,

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processes, questions, things that I can process

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these things through. And I'm sure you've seen,

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Eric, as you've done interviews, the stories

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people tell very widely. Some people might say

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they encounter Jesus or the Father. Some people

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might say they encounter a vague, nondescript

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being of light that tells them a bunch of different

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things that they come back with. Other people

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will have these... fantastical experiences, but

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they don't encounter any entities that specifically

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identify themselves as God or an angel or this

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or that. So things vary widely. But for me, I

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try to break it down into five questions. What

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is the source? If there's some kind of a being

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giving them special information or trying to

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help them understand what they're going through,

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does this being identify itself? a warm feeling

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because people talk about, I encountered this

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light and this love and it was just all through

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me. I do want to look at who or what seems to

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be the source of the experience. I also want

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to look at, for me, how did this arrive? What's

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the method of stepping into this space of this

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experience? Is it a traumatic event like so many

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of the near -death experiences, a medical emergency,

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a car accident? Often somebody just going about

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their normal day and they encounter something.

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or even what I would call a more of a spiritually

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transformative experience. I've encountered people

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where they're almost, whether you want to say

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they're at some kind of a crisis moment in their

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life, but they're not sick, they're not close

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to being dead, they're not in a coma, yet they

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enter into what is effectively a near -death

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experience. classify it slightly differently

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as a spiritually transformative experience, which

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I stole from Pim van Lommel. I got to be honest,

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I didn't come up with that phrase. But if they're

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not in a circumstance where their spirit or soul

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is crossing the veil, I do like to just differentiate

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that there are similarities, but there are some

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differences in how this experience got started.

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Or if they have an experience and they entered

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it in through some kind of an occult practice,

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if you will, a seance, channeling something,

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just to try to understand the method of how they

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get there to help evaluate what's going on. In

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terms of authority, I do tend to come at things

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through more of an orthodox Christian worldview.

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And so, I am looking forward to this. Is something

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aligned with what I might read in Scripture about

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heaven, hell, or the afterlife, or does it go

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other places? I remember we talked about this

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before the interview or just when we got started.

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Uh, looking at the long -term fruit, like what

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does it produce in the person? Obviously when

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you interview somebody, you have a conversation,

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uh, you can't watch the fruit of their life necessarily,

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uh, over years, but I've been at this long enough

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where I've got to walk things out with people

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where I've gotten to see the ongoing fruit and

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transformation that happens in their life over

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the years following their NDE. And then the other

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big thing too, uh, that I'm looking for is where

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is this pointing? In my spaces, I'm expecting

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a lot of the authors that I work with, their

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testimonies are probably going to point people

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to Jesus if it's more of a traditional heaven

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or hell NDE. I get suspect when people, they

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just want to promote their own story. It's all

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about them and their experience. They're just

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wanting to sell a whole bunch of books or something.

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That makes me nervous because I'm like, did you

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make this up, like you said, so you could sell

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a book? Or build a platform so those are some

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of the general things i i tend to look for just

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in some of this more for me is. Should i interview

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this person should i could i could should i do

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a book with them and so those are some of the

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things i'm looking for a try to understand how

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do i interact with the story because if i'm if

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i'm gonna bring somebody on the show or do a

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book with them i wanna be all in on their story

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and help them share and you know i want a lot

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of people to be impacted by the experience they

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had so for me. I feel like I have a lot of stake

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with the work I do with these testimonies. And

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so I do really try to spend time evaluating them

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and understanding if it's worth putting the tools

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I have access to behind it, so to speak. So what

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if there's one part of the story that just seems

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off? Do you throw the whole thing out? I think

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I would probably. try to score it a little bit.

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I mean, that's one of the things that we've really

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lacked in the Christian conversation around near

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-death experiences. I'm sure Eric, like me, you've

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probably read quite widely in the space. A lot

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of books that come out of more of the medical

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side of the conversation will often have frameworks

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or a structure within which you can sort of process

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qualifying NDE or have kind of a litmus test

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of these are the things that I'm expecting to

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happen. So over the course of my last two books,

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I've put together A nine point framework of the

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things I'm going to expect in a typical NDE.

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And I can go through that just very quickly.

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Like it's broken into three parts, you know,

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part one, departure. Yeah. There's some kind

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of a gateway to the afterlife medical emergency

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car accident. You know, they were having a normal

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day and all of a sudden they go into the next

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phase where they have this out of body experience.

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Their spirit leaves their body and is floating

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around in this. Earth first seven space whatever

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you want to call it i'm utterly fascinated by

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that part of the journey because some people

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get a ton of time to interact with their environment

00:12:59.539 --> 00:13:02.860
before they. Cross the veil rise up towards the

00:13:02.860 --> 00:13:05.299
light and other people it's like instantaneous

00:13:05.299 --> 00:13:07.559
i don't know what what the variation is there

00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:10.559
what's up my often think about the middle part

00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:12.860
of the framework you're kind of the encounter

00:13:12.860 --> 00:13:16.580
you looking at. the experiences off report heighten

00:13:16.580 --> 00:13:18.620
senses always say they're dialed up to eleven

00:13:18.620 --> 00:13:21.340
kids there untethered from their body and it's

00:13:21.340 --> 00:13:24.240
always bizarre that they're using physical sense

00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.340
terms but like i can you have three sixty degree

00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:29.740
peripheral vision and i don't even have to talk

00:13:29.740 --> 00:13:32.100
it's all you know spirit to spirit communication

00:13:32.100 --> 00:13:34.379
and everything's brighter and more beautiful

00:13:34.379 --> 00:13:36.720
what everyone is there without often they're

00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:38.840
encountering other beings a lot of folks have

00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.659
a life review. Sometimes they're encountering

00:13:41.659 --> 00:13:45.139
otherworldly realms, heaven, hell, different

00:13:45.139 --> 00:13:48.340
kinds of landscapes, cities, buildings. Some

00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:51.139
people distinctly seem to enter into this liminal

00:13:51.139 --> 00:13:53.639
space that in my understanding, it's more of

00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:56.100
a second heaven space. More angels and demons

00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:58.820
would be quite active. Another thing is people

00:13:58.820 --> 00:14:00.860
will often come back with special knowledge.

00:14:01.179 --> 00:14:04.820
Often what what is a divine or perceived divine

00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:07.139
being will often give them special information

00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:09.500
to come back with and then the last part like

00:14:09.500 --> 00:14:12.080
the return the aftermath returning to the body

00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:14.960
another space that always is fascinating to some

00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:18.200
people are like. And then i woke up on the hospital

00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:20.820
bed there was like an issue what are my friends

00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:23.820
had an experience where like she like goes in

00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:27.100
reverse back into her body. She calls it that

00:14:27.100 --> 00:14:29.779
is like the most traumatic part of her experience

00:14:29.779 --> 00:14:32.419
where she describes it She felt like Jesus had

00:14:32.419 --> 00:14:35.659
to smooth her spirit back into her physical body

00:14:35.659 --> 00:14:38.399
And it was just like it seated fit right inside

00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:41.960
her body as she came back the description I hear

00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:45.159
the most on people coming back and it's not everybody

00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:48.899
but the most is Quote being slammed back into

00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:53.360
my body right? It's not a pleasant experience.

00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:57.149
It's a bam, you are back. And all of a sudden

00:14:57.149 --> 00:15:00.049
you are back in pain because you've had an accident

00:15:00.049 --> 00:15:02.730
or something. Right. And it's pretty unpleasant.

00:15:02.970 --> 00:15:04.429
Finish your last point and then we're going to

00:15:04.429 --> 00:15:07.490
move on. Yeah. No, just the last part is like

00:15:07.490 --> 00:15:10.590
post NDE lingering effects. You know, the, the

00:15:10.590 --> 00:15:12.870
personality shifts there, maybe how their faith

00:15:12.870 --> 00:15:15.649
changes or, you know, new direction in life,

00:15:15.730 --> 00:15:18.129
or if it was a disturbing or distressing NDE,

00:15:18.129 --> 00:15:20.840
you know, like lasting trauma that they have

00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.519
to deal with. So anyways, nine points. I do sometimes

00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:27.240
try to weigh the experiences against that and

00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:30.559
use it as a simple scoring grid. If you have

00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.460
all nine of those things in your NDE, Whether

00:15:33.460 --> 00:15:36.000
it's a heaven nd or hell nd or something kind

00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:38.240
of in between the more of those points i feel

00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.720
the more legitimate it is not to say something

00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.620
that scores lesser isn't a legitimate and like

00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:45.500
they may have been sick and they may have died

00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:48.460
i feel like the evaluation comes more in the

00:15:48.460 --> 00:15:50.679
content of the encounter what they experience

00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:53.019
so try to use that is kind of a loose scoring

00:15:53.019 --> 00:15:55.519
grid and definitely not as scientific as what

00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:57.500
jeffrey long and others have put together but

00:15:57.500 --> 00:16:00.230
this is a nice introduction for my world. doesn't

00:16:00.230 --> 00:16:02.730
tend to process through this kind of a framework.

00:16:03.549 --> 00:16:06.210
All right now I've interviewed people and we're

00:16:06.210 --> 00:16:10.190
talking about the Christian space here from every

00:16:10.190 --> 00:16:12.509
different Christian variety you can think of

00:16:12.509 --> 00:16:15.090
and here's one thing that a lot of people have

00:16:15.090 --> 00:16:18.649
told me is they had an experience that weekend

00:16:18.649 --> 00:16:20.669
they went to church maybe they hadn't been in

00:16:20.669 --> 00:16:24.429
a little while but they went to church and afterwards

00:16:24.429 --> 00:16:27.690
they grabbed their priest their pastor their

00:16:27.690 --> 00:16:30.240
whatever the clergy's title was that they went

00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.620
by and said, I've got to tell you about what

00:16:32.620 --> 00:16:35.080
happened to me, because it's such an amazing,

00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:39.500
to use the STE thing, it's such an amazing spiritually

00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:42.759
transformative experience for them. And some

00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:45.980
people are really put down. They're like, oh,

00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:49.059
that was of the devil or some really negative

00:16:49.059 --> 00:16:52.480
feedback. Have you run into some of that? And

00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:54.360
what do you think about that? What do we do about

00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:57.419
that? Yeah, I mean, that's the I hear that a

00:16:57.419 --> 00:17:00.039
lot from my friends who go out and travel and

00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:02.399
speak and share their testimonies Yeah, I think

00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.559
the the the difference is probably coming in

00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:07.900
different parts of the church or different denominations

00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:11.220
You have very conservative denominations who

00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:14.720
are almost anti supernatural They're not comfortable

00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:17.599
with anything kind of supernatural. So a near

00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:20.240
-death experience just make some kind of freak

00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:22.680
out because they've been warned to avoid all

00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.859
of these things in their their whole christian

00:17:24.859 --> 00:17:27.279
journey if you will so i think that you certain

00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.400
parts of the church that feel anything like this

00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.940
that is out of the norm will be kind of suspect.

00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:35.000
That'd be fair and these are a lot more common

00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.079
now in terms of documentaries films books like

00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:39.720
i feel like it's much more normalize part of

00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.160
our culture in the conversation a lot of. Older

00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.309
pastors and christian leaders. just weren't immersed

00:17:46.309 --> 00:17:48.450
in this when they went to their training or their

00:17:48.450 --> 00:17:50.390
seminary. It's not like there was a seminary

00:17:50.390 --> 00:17:52.730
class on, hey, when a parishioner comes up to

00:17:52.730 --> 00:17:55.109
you and tells you about this near to the experience,

00:17:55.289 --> 00:17:57.789
here's how you respond to them. And so some of

00:17:57.789 --> 00:18:00.369
it I think is from a lack of training, but like

00:18:00.369 --> 00:18:05.289
on the more charismatic or like Holy Spirit experience

00:18:05.289 --> 00:18:07.190
focused sides of the church, there's a much higher

00:18:07.190 --> 00:18:10.430
comfort level of, well, of course you could experience

00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:12.990
something like that because supernatural things

00:18:12.990 --> 00:18:15.930
are a normal part of our Christian walk or life

00:18:15.930 --> 00:18:19.549
or experience. I feel like the response you get

00:18:19.549 --> 00:18:22.609
is largely going to vary somewhat. It could be

00:18:22.609 --> 00:18:24.829
by the age of your pastor and their exposure

00:18:24.829 --> 00:18:27.170
to this kind of content, and also what side of

00:18:27.170 --> 00:18:28.869
the church that you're in. Again, in the hyper

00:18:28.869 --> 00:18:31.630
conservative sides, they just don't have a comfort

00:18:31.630 --> 00:18:33.569
level or a grid to know what to do with this.

00:18:33.789 --> 00:18:36.380
Personally, I came up in a very conservative

00:18:36.380 --> 00:18:39.039
side of the church. And so again, kind of my

00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.839
discomfort stepping into this space. And now

00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:44.420
like this is as normal as the water I drink and

00:18:44.420 --> 00:18:47.839
the air I breathe. So I built a grid and an understanding

00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:51.980
over many years, but That's a very normal response

00:18:51.980 --> 00:18:55.519
that a pastor would be uncomfortable with. Even

00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:57.779
for years, you had medical doctors who would

00:18:57.779 --> 00:19:00.599
discount and be uncomfortable when people would

00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:03.880
come back and share their experiences. I've read

00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:06.019
a lot and talked to a lot of doctors now where

00:19:06.019 --> 00:19:09.119
it's actually normal. to have some level of training

00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:11.640
and encouraging nurses and doctors to talk to

00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:13.440
their patients and let them process a little

00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.180
bit and be more accepting of these testimonies

00:19:16.180 --> 00:19:18.619
they feel like they need to share rather than

00:19:18.619 --> 00:19:22.099
dismissing it. We've not had those kinds of conversations

00:19:22.099 --> 00:19:24.539
much that I've seen. inside the church yet, but

00:19:24.539 --> 00:19:26.400
I think it'd be a helpful conversation to have

00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.880
because when people feel like you're rejecting

00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.000
their testimony, sometimes it makes them feel

00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.359
like they don't belong in the church or in your

00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:35.819
church anymore, and it's very hurtful. And so

00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:37.859
we should be in a position to take these folks

00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:39.940
seriously and listen to what they have to share

00:19:39.940 --> 00:19:42.119
because that's an important part, I think, of

00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:44.759
them integrating the story, the experience into

00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:47.079
themselves. And without being able to share and

00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:48.599
process, I feel like it's very hard for them

00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:51.799
to do that. Yeah, absolutely a lot of these people

00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:54.720
they told me they never went back to church right

00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.759
and that's and that's really sad I had the opportunity

00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:00.660
a few months to go to be on a podcast called

00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:04.619
planters Okay, and so these are people, you know

00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:07.940
young people starting up churches and it was

00:20:07.940 --> 00:20:10.799
basically You know, here's here's a quick hour

00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:13.940
of training on this thing Here's how, when somebody

00:20:13.940 --> 00:20:16.759
does walk into your office and says this, here's

00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:19.519
some ideas of how you can deal with it. Because

00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.519
the fact is these things are real. Although you

00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.740
use the word conspiracy right after it, but we

00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:27.799
both believe these things are real. I think we

00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:30.720
have some common ground there. Absolutely. Training

00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.339
is something that just needs to happen. Doctors

00:20:33.339 --> 00:20:36.339
are doing it. In fact, and you've been to Iain's

00:20:36.339 --> 00:20:39.759
conferences too, you mentioned doctors, nurses.

00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:43.119
they can go to ions and get credit hours for

00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:45.460
the annual training that they need to have every

00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:48.500
year. So some of that is happening and I think

00:20:48.500 --> 00:20:51.660
we need to do most or more of it I should say

00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:54.920
with our clergy as well get them up to speed.

00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:59.500
Okay what is your take when somebody comes up

00:20:59.500 --> 00:21:02.480
with something from their NDE they seem very

00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:04.579
credible they've been through your nine -part

00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:08.130
checklist or whatever But there's something that

00:21:08.130 --> 00:21:10.690
seems off doctrinally, and I'm going to throw

00:21:10.690 --> 00:21:15.089
out terms like reincarnation or people talking

00:21:15.089 --> 00:21:18.390
about their past life regressions. What do you

00:21:18.390 --> 00:21:22.289
make of that? And how do we handle that? My gut

00:21:22.289 --> 00:21:25.769
reaction, because I try to process everything

00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:28.609
through my own Christian worldview lens is like,

00:21:28.769 --> 00:21:32.309
oh, that violates scripture. So it would give

00:21:32.309 --> 00:21:36.769
me concern. We'll start with the past life memories.

00:21:36.910 --> 00:21:39.509
I enjoyed going down this rabbit hole. Obviously,

00:21:39.730 --> 00:21:42.190
the work at University of Virginia Perceptual

00:21:42.190 --> 00:21:45.309
Studies is really the core place to look for

00:21:45.309 --> 00:21:47.789
long -term scientific research into the space.

00:21:48.609 --> 00:21:51.289
Ian Stevenson spent his whole career traveling

00:21:51.289 --> 00:21:54.289
the world documenting these cases. What's fascinated

00:21:54.289 --> 00:21:56.890
me about his work, and he's what I do focus on

00:21:56.890 --> 00:21:58.710
a lot in that part of the book, a lot of the

00:21:58.710 --> 00:22:02.200
work he did was study cases kind of in the third

00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.019
world, outside of the Western world, if you will.

00:22:05.380 --> 00:22:07.740
There are a handful of cases or a number of cases

00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:10.420
from the States, but the majority of them did

00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:13.359
come out of countries where reincarnation was

00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:15.980
more of a normalized part of the faith, as you

00:22:15.980 --> 00:22:17.839
might say, in that part of the country. Does

00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.339
that taint his research a little bit? Maybe.

00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:21.700
I mean, that's where he was just getting the

00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:24.339
stories from, but they didn't counter legitimate.

00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:27.619
circumstances of children usually between the

00:22:27.619 --> 00:22:30.259
ages of two and seven, recounting memories that

00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:33.519
were not their own. So for me, in trying to wrestle

00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:36.400
with that, and again, I'm trying to connect dots

00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.880
and connect data points. So one of the things

00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:42.200
that fascinated me about the age range is that

00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:45.240
this is with children who I would say are spiritually

00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:47.500
open. I feel like a lot of us are very spiritually

00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:50.720
open between two and five, two and seven. A lot

00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:55.079
of us will report seeing Ghosts or spirits or

00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.319
things when when we're young like I grew up in

00:22:57.319 --> 00:22:59.720
a haunted farmhouse like between the ages of

00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:02.839
three and four we had all kinds of weird encounters

00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:06.039
in this house where i was like this place seems

00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:09.059
haunted strange things like the car. Out in front

00:23:09.059 --> 00:23:11.500
of the house the horn would blare the lights

00:23:11.500 --> 00:23:14.559
would flash this is before the days of key fobs

00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:16.619
you know an alarm system is being in every car

00:23:16.619 --> 00:23:18.640
and it only happened in front of our house it

00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:20.740
didn't happen anywhere else at grandma's house

00:23:20.740 --> 00:23:22.799
not at the grocery store. just in front of our

00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.480
house. We had a weird thing that would happen

00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:28.480
in the kitchen every night. We had this kitchen

00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.099
-dining room combination and this little table

00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:32.960
with four chairs. Every night, the chairs would

00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.200
be under the table. In the morning, one of the

00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:37.920
chairs would be physically moved to the back

00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:39.920
window overlooking the backyard like somebody

00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:41.859
who had been sitting in it watching out the back

00:23:41.859 --> 00:23:44.180
window. No matter what we did, no matter how

00:23:44.180 --> 00:23:46.759
we rearranged the chairs, they would always move.

00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:50.259
The other thing that I encountered I remember

00:23:50.259 --> 00:23:53.420
just two distinct instances of waking in the

00:23:53.420 --> 00:23:55.160
middle of the night and being scared because

00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:59.019
I saw kind of glowing, floating, almost looked

00:23:59.019 --> 00:24:01.279
like orbs with faces, if you will. And they were

00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:04.200
just menacing and scary. And I just remember

00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:07.180
like encountering one in my bed and it just kind

00:24:07.180 --> 00:24:09.539
of floated out in the front of my bed for a while.

00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:11.980
I remember pulling the covers over my head and

00:24:11.980 --> 00:24:14.259
then looking out later and it was gone. And then

00:24:14.259 --> 00:24:17.539
we had another encounter where it was just this

00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:20.359
kind of menacing face going back and forth in

00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:22.960
the doorway looking at me. Clearly there are

00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:25.259
some strange things happening in that house.

00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:29.000
And so back then I thought the house was haunted.

00:24:29.740 --> 00:24:32.500
I might imply now that I think there was a level

00:24:32.500 --> 00:24:35.819
of demonic manifestation or oppression happening

00:24:35.819 --> 00:24:37.940
in that space. And a lot of the time in those

00:24:37.940 --> 00:24:40.299
circumstances, it seems to impact the youngest

00:24:40.299 --> 00:24:43.160
person in the group or the household because

00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:45.400
they're the most vulnerable. But all that to

00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:47.900
say, in my mind, when I started looking at the

00:24:47.900 --> 00:24:50.980
past life memories, just the age range that it's

00:24:50.980 --> 00:24:52.960
happening is very similar to when I was young

00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:55.759
and encountered things in my haunted farmhouse.

00:24:56.339 --> 00:24:59.500
And so the theory that I put forth in the book

00:24:59.500 --> 00:25:02.920
is that I do wonder if what's happening in these

00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:05.839
past life memory situations, if it's occurring

00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:07.859
with children that are in that spiritually vulnerable

00:25:07.859 --> 00:25:11.880
age, are these demons or familiar spirits implanting

00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:14.940
this information about these past lives into

00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:18.519
the end of these children's minds as a ploy,

00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:21.920
a push, whatever, towards reincarnation? That's

00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:24.279
the theory I put forth in the book. It's not

00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:27.299
based on a bunch of crazy long research. It's

00:25:27.299 --> 00:25:29.799
drawing a correlation between the ages of those

00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:33.029
children and the ages of what I experience. as

00:25:33.029 --> 00:25:35.990
a young child. But again, as part of this consciousness

00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:37.670
conversation, it's something we have to take

00:25:37.670 --> 00:25:40.170
seriously and deal with. I'm sure I'll wrestle

00:25:40.170 --> 00:25:41.910
with that in future books and try to develop

00:25:41.910 --> 00:25:44.529
some ideas further. But that's the direction

00:25:44.529 --> 00:25:48.269
of how I approach that. Do you personally believe

00:25:48.269 --> 00:25:52.769
that we, as some sort of a spirit self, lived

00:25:52.769 --> 00:25:55.410
in heaven or with God before we came here to

00:25:55.410 --> 00:25:57.930
earth? I mean, if you looked at scripture talking

00:25:57.930 --> 00:25:59.789
about that, you know, implying that God knew

00:25:59.789 --> 00:26:04.269
us before we were born, I don't know. In my worldview,

00:26:04.450 --> 00:26:07.269
I don't know that I think we necessarily live

00:26:07.269 --> 00:26:10.450
before we are born. I would interpret the scripture

00:26:10.450 --> 00:26:13.690
about God knowing us to be that He knows if He's

00:26:13.690 --> 00:26:16.109
infinite, knows the past, present, and future,

00:26:16.369 --> 00:26:18.450
that He knows of our life and that we're coming.

00:26:18.690 --> 00:26:21.849
I don't know that I would support the idea that

00:26:21.849 --> 00:26:24.910
we were pre -incarnate in heaven, although I've

00:26:24.910 --> 00:26:28.009
heard people talk about that. remembering their

00:26:28.009 --> 00:26:30.789
time before they were born or remembering their

00:26:30.789 --> 00:26:34.009
times in between lives. I haven't spent as much

00:26:34.009 --> 00:26:36.769
time kind of investigating that side of the consciousness

00:26:36.769 --> 00:26:38.910
conversation. The first time I really encountered

00:26:38.910 --> 00:26:41.849
it was at an INS event where a gentleman shared

00:26:41.849 --> 00:26:45.170
about after practicing TDM, he all of a sudden

00:26:45.170 --> 00:26:47.930
started having all of these pre -life memories

00:26:47.930 --> 00:26:50.910
is how he described them. So my gut feel now,

00:26:50.910 --> 00:26:55.009
I don't believe that we necessarily exist before,

00:26:55.049 --> 00:26:59.190
but Maybe I'm a little jury out. There's a lot

00:26:59.190 --> 00:27:01.549
we don't know. Let's both admit that. That's

00:27:01.549 --> 00:27:05.470
fine. One of the things that I think is when

00:27:05.470 --> 00:27:11.390
people have a classical NDE, okay, and they feel

00:27:11.390 --> 00:27:14.269
like because of what they experience, they feel

00:27:14.269 --> 00:27:17.190
like they've learned everything about heaven

00:27:17.190 --> 00:27:20.390
or about the way things run or the way it is.

00:27:20.769 --> 00:27:24.920
But my feeling is they have been to the front

00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.740
step of the front door and had a teeny teeny

00:27:27.740 --> 00:27:30.920
glance in. Right. And it's easy to take things

00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:32.960
when we have a little glance to take things out

00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:36.099
of perspective and to think we know it all. But

00:27:36.099 --> 00:27:41.240
maybe that little glance that was one thing is

00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.839
being interpreted as reincarnation or as some

00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.519
of these other things that just don't seem to

00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:50.940
drive that well. What do you think about that

00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:54.700
philosophy? things being reinterpreted as reincarnation

00:27:54.700 --> 00:27:58.619
or the fact that people are only getting a glimpse

00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:02.539
sure okay of heaven that's number one that i'm

00:28:02.539 --> 00:28:05.839
curious if you agree with and number two if that's

00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:09.880
the case would it be easy for them to come back

00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:15.039
and assume some things that maybe aren't right

00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:18.059
Well, you know, obviously there's great variation

00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:21.579
across the many testimonies you and I have heard

00:28:21.579 --> 00:28:26.150
through the years. Big picture, I see there's

00:28:26.150 --> 00:28:29.009
a lot of consistency across what's happening

00:28:29.009 --> 00:28:31.789
in the midst of a traditional heaven experience,

00:28:31.789 --> 00:28:34.450
if you will. Yet there's a lot of variety that

00:28:34.450 --> 00:28:37.049
seems tailored to the individual, like almost

00:28:37.049 --> 00:28:40.049
God intentionally is meeting them with what they

00:28:40.049 --> 00:28:42.930
need to base, because often they're coming because

00:28:42.930 --> 00:28:46.109
of a traumatic situation. And so again, consistency,

00:28:46.309 --> 00:28:48.630
yet also variety almost tailored to the person

00:28:48.630 --> 00:28:52.859
for what they need. And going back to the limited

00:28:52.859 --> 00:28:55.980
perspective idea, on the one hand, I feel like

00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:58.059
people are often overwhelmed and they'll fixate

00:28:58.059 --> 00:29:00.599
on certain things. Like people often say, I encountered

00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.200
Jesus, it was all love, love radiated through

00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:07.240
me. And they'll focus on that one point or whatever

00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:09.740
was significant for them. Some people encounter

00:29:09.740 --> 00:29:12.619
their beloved pets in heaven, usually dogs. I

00:29:12.619 --> 00:29:15.059
don't know why it's always dogs. I only have

00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:17.220
one third -hand cat encounter in heaven from

00:29:17.220 --> 00:29:20.349
somebody. But again, They're encountering things

00:29:20.349 --> 00:29:22.769
they need to feel comfortable. I've had people

00:29:22.769 --> 00:29:25.349
talk to me about smelling grandma's chocolate

00:29:25.349 --> 00:29:27.890
chip cookies or grandma's tapioca pudding, things

00:29:27.890 --> 00:29:30.490
that just gave them ease as they're trying to

00:29:30.490 --> 00:29:33.329
process what's going on. The place I'd probably

00:29:33.329 --> 00:29:36.289
step into next with that is at least with Jeffrey

00:29:36.289 --> 00:29:38.950
Long's work. He talks about how based on all

00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:41.289
of his surveys, it takes about seven years for

00:29:41.289 --> 00:29:44.470
somebody to come to terms with. kind of their

00:29:44.470 --> 00:29:47.329
NDE, maybe have it somewhat integrated into themselves

00:29:47.329 --> 00:29:49.490
by that point. One of the things that I've seen,

00:29:49.490 --> 00:29:51.509
you know, working with people who are brand new,

00:29:51.869 --> 00:29:53.750
they've just had an experience for people who've,

00:29:53.750 --> 00:29:56.109
you know, been processing for decades. There

00:29:56.109 --> 00:29:59.990
does seem to be this almost circumstance of ongoing

00:29:59.990 --> 00:30:04.029
revelation or ongoing understanding. I jokingly

00:30:04.029 --> 00:30:07.829
describe it as our finite brains cannot handle

00:30:07.829 --> 00:30:11.109
the download that they got on the other side.

00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:13.880
I think that's where it can be a little confusing.

00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:19.079
Early on, I feel like people are still so processing

00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:21.759
the experience, they struggle to tell it. Then

00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.400
as they sit with it longer, not that a lot of

00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:29.180
the testimonies change because with the research,

00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:32.240
they tend to be very consistent across long periods

00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:35.390
of time. See, I think that can be one part where

00:30:35.390 --> 00:30:38.589
it can be very confusing where, you know, just

00:30:38.589 --> 00:30:40.410
even working with authors who've written more

00:30:40.410 --> 00:30:43.210
about what they experienced, you know, as they're

00:30:43.210 --> 00:30:46.089
further from it, it does seem to kind of expand.

00:30:46.369 --> 00:30:49.150
And so, you know, what maybe somebody understood

00:30:49.150 --> 00:30:51.809
early on, like, you know, a year after the experience

00:30:51.809 --> 00:30:53.490
versus five years or 10 years, I feel like it

00:30:53.490 --> 00:30:56.690
can... Not change in terms of content, but they

00:30:56.690 --> 00:30:58.410
just understand it better because they've chewed

00:30:58.410 --> 00:31:00.309
on it. They've wrestled with it more. So I feel

00:31:00.309 --> 00:31:02.369
like that could maybe change some of the interpretation,

00:31:02.930 --> 00:31:05.309
the understanding. I've also seen in terms of

00:31:05.309 --> 00:31:07.269
interpreting like this, this leads toward, you

00:31:07.269 --> 00:31:09.470
know, leans towards reincarnation or pick some

00:31:09.470 --> 00:31:11.849
other thing. It's been fascinating to talk to

00:31:11.849 --> 00:31:15.380
people who. Had and ease when they were an atheist

00:31:15.380 --> 00:31:18.480
or you know They were a nominal Christian or

00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:21.200
wherever it might be that they'll use the language

00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.740
that they have to describe it You know if they

00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:26.480
come out of more Kind of what I would describe

00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.500
as new age or like very spiritually broad circles

00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:32.819
when they describe the ND they they use The language

00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:34.920
they have the spiritual understanding that they

00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:37.119
have to explain it versus somebody who's you

00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:38.940
know a very churchy person if you will is going

00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:42.849
to use biblical spiritual language or just kind

00:31:42.849 --> 00:31:46.309
of very churchy words. And so, you know, I think

00:31:46.309 --> 00:31:49.170
some of their kind of cultural norms and experiences

00:31:49.170 --> 00:31:52.150
are definitely going to impact how they decipher

00:31:52.150 --> 00:31:55.829
or understand what they're encountering. Even

00:31:55.829 --> 00:31:59.329
names for God. I mean, you know, one of the big

00:31:59.329 --> 00:32:03.650
ones right now is source. Okay. Or, you know,

00:32:03.809 --> 00:32:05.910
terms about consciousness and all these different

00:32:05.910 --> 00:32:09.140
things. That's because during their NDE, God

00:32:09.140 --> 00:32:12.420
didn't come up to them and say, my name is such

00:32:12.420 --> 00:32:15.599
and such. Right. So if you want to use the term

00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.799
source or supreme being or whatever you want

00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:23.019
to use, that's okay. I think we're talking about

00:32:23.019 --> 00:32:28.319
the same divine being, I assume. Wow. Tell me

00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:32.920
one thing that you've really had a hard time

00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:36.450
bringing into line with your beliefs. Was it

00:32:36.450 --> 00:32:38.789
reincarnation? Was it something else that gets

00:32:38.789 --> 00:32:44.250
talked about in these NDEs? Wow, how do I rectify

00:32:44.250 --> 00:32:47.289
that with my beliefs? I would say reincarnation.

00:32:47.630 --> 00:32:50.769
That is in direct conflict with my belief, my

00:32:50.769 --> 00:32:54.490
worldview as a Christian. That is a big struggle

00:32:54.490 --> 00:32:57.769
in terms of I have a lot of concerns and problems

00:32:57.769 --> 00:33:00.559
with that. You know, on the one hand, if I think

00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:03.019
of, and again, I'm filtering this partly through

00:33:03.019 --> 00:33:05.059
the research and reading I've done about the

00:33:05.059 --> 00:33:09.160
past life memories. My thought is if the past

00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:11.339
life memories are a major support for the idea

00:33:11.339 --> 00:33:15.380
of reincarnation, and reincarnation is a viable

00:33:15.380 --> 00:33:18.859
afterlife destination, then I expect that those

00:33:18.859 --> 00:33:22.019
past life memories should be very common, and

00:33:22.019 --> 00:33:26.299
they're not. you know, a major destination for

00:33:26.299 --> 00:33:28.519
everybody, then I would expect we should all

00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:30.460
have family members, friends, people we know

00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:33.079
who are having these past life memories. Probably

00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:35.880
the gist of like the strong processing I've done

00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:38.539
with that is I've tried to understand what's

00:33:38.539 --> 00:33:40.539
happening with the kids having past life memories.

00:33:41.019 --> 00:33:42.700
And so again, I would, again, if it's viable,

00:33:42.700 --> 00:33:45.319
I would expect it to be very common. I've had

00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:51.019
people talk to me about like epigenetics, like

00:33:51.019 --> 00:33:55.579
your DNA can carry like memories or things from

00:33:55.579 --> 00:33:58.299
your ancestors or your family line. I have had

00:33:58.299 --> 00:34:00.700
some people talk to me about folks who've had

00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:03.920
NDEs where they've had situations where they've

00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:07.180
encountered things in their afterlife experience,

00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:09.940
kind of seeing through their ancestors' eyes

00:34:09.940 --> 00:34:13.199
things that they experienced or ran into. I feel

00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.590
like trying to apply the epigenetics. Into an

00:34:16.590 --> 00:34:18.869
out of body spiritual experience circumstances

00:34:18.869 --> 00:34:20.989
a little weird cuz you're disconnected from your

00:34:20.989 --> 00:34:24.969
physical body and your DNA unless we have. Spirit

00:34:24.969 --> 00:34:27.429
DNA that transitions and then you're just your

00:34:27.429 --> 00:34:29.889
separating forms at that point see a problem

00:34:29.889 --> 00:34:33.190
probably reincarnation would be a definite challenge

00:34:33.190 --> 00:34:36.039
you know the the. pre -life memories, stuff that

00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:38.039
we talked about a little bit, but that's a big

00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:41.199
challenge because it doesn't quite fit with my

00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:45.099
grid. Bringing alien abductions into the conversation.

00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:48.360
I got PMH Atwater's new book. I haven't had a

00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:50.840
chance to read it yet. I heard some of her sessions

00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:53.239
at Ayan's conference a couple of years back.

00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:56.420
Oh, you know, again, that's another weird space.

00:34:56.679 --> 00:34:59.500
It feels like anything that could loosely connect

00:34:59.500 --> 00:35:02.159
into the consciousness conversation is like part

00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.619
of the smorgasbord at the buffet table. So it

00:35:04.619 --> 00:35:07.079
goes lots of interesting directions in terms

00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:09.860
of the conversational variety. And that's one

00:35:09.860 --> 00:35:12.860
of my concerns with ions right now is they're

00:35:12.860 --> 00:35:15.539
getting into a lot of the weeds here instead

00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:18.320
of focusing what I think is their niche, but

00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.730
will. We'll see how that all pans out. I would

00:35:21.730 --> 00:35:23.750
say just to be honoring, I love all the work

00:35:23.750 --> 00:35:27.170
they do with experiencers to try to give support

00:35:27.170 --> 00:35:29.590
groups, helping people process and work through

00:35:29.590 --> 00:35:31.289
their stuff. There's nobody else doing that and

00:35:31.289 --> 00:35:33.869
so I definitely have to honor them for that.

00:35:34.429 --> 00:35:36.130
But yeah, I would say the trajectory has been

00:35:36.130 --> 00:35:38.010
pretty fascinating because when you look at the

00:35:38.010 --> 00:35:40.610
founders, it was mostly medical doctors and I

00:35:40.610 --> 00:35:42.849
feel like they were having pretty structured

00:35:42.849 --> 00:35:45.010
conversations around what's happening physically.

00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:48.920
in the body related to NDEs. I feel like back

00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.800
in the day you had a lot more traditional testimonies.

00:35:52.260 --> 00:35:54.440
And I'll say based on the events I've been at,

00:35:54.820 --> 00:35:56.800
I feel like almost none of the conversations

00:35:56.800 --> 00:36:00.239
have anything to do with people sharing NDE testimonies.

00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:03.820
It's all focused on all this other stuff. And

00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:06.960
so it's interesting, but it kind of takes away

00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:10.320
from the actual near -death experiences that

00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:12.699
there was a whole reason for that group existing

00:36:12.699 --> 00:36:16.480
to begin with. Well, I think so too. And it has

00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:19.559
been hard to keep this podcast on track. Just

00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:23.199
doing that. Just sticking with our narrow lane

00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.860
here. It's constantly people are wanting to get

00:36:26.860 --> 00:36:29.579
it off track. And for now, we're sticking there,

00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:32.480
but we'll see. Do you think Paul had an NDE?

00:36:33.539 --> 00:36:37.269
I do. I do. You know, on the one hand, I think

00:36:37.269 --> 00:36:39.489
like anybody today who had one, especially if

00:36:39.489 --> 00:36:42.489
you're a spiritual leader, there can be a stigma

00:36:42.489 --> 00:36:44.769
of sharing about your experience. Will people

00:36:44.769 --> 00:36:48.349
treat you differently in a negative way or differently

00:36:48.349 --> 00:36:50.750
like treating you like you're a guru, that you

00:36:50.750 --> 00:36:54.190
know everything about heaven and the afterlife?

00:36:54.829 --> 00:36:57.409
Why Paul tells us about it in the third person's

00:36:57.409 --> 00:37:00.489
like, I knew a guy. What do the third heaven

00:37:00.489 --> 00:37:03.510
and so i interpret that is paul had a near -death

00:37:03.510 --> 00:37:06.150
experience absolutely i mean i wonder did the

00:37:06.150 --> 00:37:08.010
guy have multiple near -death experiences like

00:37:08.010 --> 00:37:10.090
he had a lot of hard luck in his journeys you

00:37:10.090 --> 00:37:12.690
snake bites shipwrecks i mean pick your thing

00:37:12.690 --> 00:37:15.510
he had multiple you know stone to death i had

00:37:15.510 --> 00:37:18.219
plenty of. opportunities to have at least one,

00:37:18.219 --> 00:37:21.460
if not multiple, NDE's. But on the other hand,

00:37:21.699 --> 00:37:24.280
I've met so many people where they have an experience

00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.500
and God tells them they can't disclose certain

00:37:26.500 --> 00:37:28.559
things. They're not released to share certain

00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:32.179
things. And so, I can try to put myself in Paul's

00:37:32.179 --> 00:37:34.380
mindset and try to figure out what would have

00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:37.159
been the challenges for him with sharing or not

00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:40.139
sharing about all of his experience. But my reading

00:37:40.139 --> 00:37:42.679
of that part of scripture is, I would say Paul

00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.280
definitely had an NDE. What do you think happened

00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:49.400
to Lazarus? Oh, man, that's that's a fun one,

00:37:49.500 --> 00:37:51.860
you know, he's the guy I want to get on the show

00:37:51.860 --> 00:37:54.440
Yeah, you know anything and Lazarus had to die

00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:57.619
again. What the heck? There's no really recording

00:37:57.619 --> 00:38:01.119
in Scripture of Lazarus having an NDE nor really

00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:04.000
him telling a whole lot about what he experienced

00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:07.940
I wish we had that maybe that will emerge in

00:38:07.940 --> 00:38:11.519
some lost gospel documents someday With what

00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:14.480
I read in scripture, in theory, he had an NDE

00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:17.619
while he was in the grave and before he was resurrected,

00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.420
I would assume his soul left his body and he

00:38:20.420 --> 00:38:22.340
experienced something. But unfortunately, we

00:38:22.340 --> 00:38:25.079
have no accounting for what that was. I think

00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:28.659
to fit our definition of NDE of spirit leaving

00:38:28.659 --> 00:38:31.760
the body, going somewhere else, I think we can

00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:34.619
assume he definitely had one, but no idea of

00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:36.920
the content. Three days, I think that has to

00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:39.619
be the case. Yes, you're definitely dead at that

00:38:39.619 --> 00:38:42.929
point. And if he had one, just because it's not

00:38:42.929 --> 00:38:45.570
in the Bible doesn't mean it didn't happen, certainly.

00:38:46.050 --> 00:38:49.329
And I think that a lot of people have these experiences

00:38:49.329 --> 00:38:52.110
and for whatever reason don't remember them.

00:38:52.670 --> 00:38:55.530
Because it doesn't make sense that children would

00:38:55.530 --> 00:38:57.909
have more of these experiences. I think they

00:38:57.909 --> 00:39:01.849
just remember more. If you've studied Dr. Melvin

00:39:01.849 --> 00:39:05.349
Morris and some of his work with children, The

00:39:05.349 --> 00:39:08.610
percentages of people who had a we could call

00:39:08.610 --> 00:39:11.429
it a cardiac arrest came back remembered something

00:39:11.429 --> 00:39:14.250
the percentage is way way higher in children

00:39:14.250 --> 00:39:17.599
than it is in adults. I think the children haven't

00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:19.980
had some of the, I don't know if wonder is the

00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:22.619
right word, but as adults, as we learn how the

00:39:22.619 --> 00:39:24.980
world functions, some of these things we are

00:39:24.980 --> 00:39:27.400
much more willing to say as children, it's trained

00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:29.460
out of this because we know it's taboo or it's

00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:31.360
not going to be received well. Children have

00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:33.280
the benefit of not having all the constraints

00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:36.400
that we have socially a lot of times around these

00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:39.059
things. And so I guess I'm not really surprised

00:39:39.059 --> 00:39:40.699
that children will be willing to share more because

00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:43.400
they're like, what do I have to risk? This happened

00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:45.219
to me. I want to understand it. I want to talk

00:39:45.219 --> 00:39:49.630
about. Yeah. Do you want to talk about the experience

00:39:49.630 --> 00:39:52.909
that your wife had? Yeah. Yeah, I'd love to go

00:39:52.909 --> 00:39:56.449
down that road. This to me is the blessing of

00:39:56.449 --> 00:39:59.630
God. What I perceive as God immersing me in this

00:39:59.630 --> 00:40:01.809
space, a space I wasn't interested in. There

00:40:01.809 --> 00:40:04.010
were times like, I don't even know why I'm in

00:40:04.010 --> 00:40:07.070
this space. It's fascinating. I love having these

00:40:07.070 --> 00:40:09.170
conversations and telling these stories. But

00:40:09.170 --> 00:40:12.550
in terms of meaning to my life, I was not as

00:40:12.550 --> 00:40:14.989
like, I'll write about it. I'll help other people

00:40:14.989 --> 00:40:17.590
with books. But I'll tell you about a dream I

00:40:17.590 --> 00:40:20.230
had first several years back that ties into this.

00:40:20.590 --> 00:40:22.610
So this was probably about eight or nine years

00:40:22.610 --> 00:40:26.449
ago. I had a dream again i'm not a big dreamer

00:40:26.449 --> 00:40:29.349
i'd i work with people and authors who would

00:40:29.349 --> 00:40:31.829
say they're prophetic or they have seer vision

00:40:31.829 --> 00:40:34.630
giftings and they dream about all kinds of crazy

00:40:34.630 --> 00:40:37.789
stuff i am not that guy you know we're lucky

00:40:37.789 --> 00:40:40.940
if i get a pizza dream once in a while. And so

00:40:40.940 --> 00:40:44.460
I had this very distinct dream. And in the dream,

00:40:44.579 --> 00:40:48.019
I remember talking with my children and saying,

00:40:48.019 --> 00:40:51.719
you know, hey, I want to get remarried. And you

00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:53.719
know, this is who it is. And they kind of almost

00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:55.539
asking for their blessing or their permission.

00:40:55.659 --> 00:40:58.440
And in like, in my understanding, my brain, my

00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:00.840
knowing in the dream, I knew my late, my now

00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.179
late wife was gone. She was in heaven and she

00:41:03.179 --> 00:41:06.039
was fine, so to speak. And that was the whole

00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:07.820
context of the dream. You know, I wrote it down

00:41:07.820 --> 00:41:10.340
in my journal and I said, that is really weird.

00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:13.679
But I didn't tell anybody about it and just didn't

00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.480
really think about it. And then fast forward

00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:20.500
five, six years later, and my wife collapses

00:41:20.500 --> 00:41:23.300
one day at home as a seizure, gets rushed to

00:41:23.300 --> 00:41:25.739
the hospital, go through all these things and

00:41:25.739 --> 00:41:28.239
find out she has a stage four brain tumor. And

00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:32.679
so we go through four surgeries, 60 days in the

00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:35.739
hospital that year. Ultimately, the prognosis

00:41:35.739 --> 00:41:38.380
is not good. You'll be lucky if you make it 12

00:41:38.380 --> 00:41:41.809
months. We walked out all of our treatment options

00:41:41.809 --> 00:41:44.449
and then walked down this journey of just really

00:41:44.449 --> 00:41:49.010
slowly waiting for her to die. The first way

00:41:49.010 --> 00:41:50.869
that I was really able to help her and comfort

00:41:50.869 --> 00:41:53.199
her, And when somebody has a brain tumor, like

00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:55.840
their brain fades over time as things progress

00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:57.900
and get worse. So earlier on in the journey,

00:41:57.900 --> 00:42:00.800
we were able to have candid, lucid conversations

00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:03.300
that she could understand and whatnot. And so

00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:06.039
she had a lot of questions about death and dying

00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:08.360
and, you know, what is it like? What should I

00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:11.099
expect? And I was able to share a lot of the

00:42:11.099 --> 00:42:13.360
testimonies from, you know, the many people I've

00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:15.559
read their books and interviewed them or just

00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:17.519
interacted with them through the years and answer

00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:19.840
a lot of her questions, which I feel like gave

00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.769
her a lot of comfort. throughout that whole journey,

00:42:21.789 --> 00:42:25.349
that whole process. And then we hit a space probably

00:42:25.349 --> 00:42:29.789
about nine months before she passed where her

00:42:29.789 --> 00:42:32.309
brain, her brain was still pretty good. She could

00:42:32.309 --> 00:42:34.530
interact and, and, you know, could have normal

00:42:34.530 --> 00:42:36.969
conversations and she could understand. But she

00:42:36.969 --> 00:42:41.309
had an out of body experience one night where

00:42:41.309 --> 00:42:42.889
she was telling me about it the next day. And

00:42:42.889 --> 00:42:46.050
she's like, you know, Hey, I was, I was, I couldn't

00:42:46.050 --> 00:42:48.530
wake you up last night. Like I was looking down

00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:52.000
on you. And no matter what I did, I couldn't

00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:54.519
get your attention. I couldn't wake you. And

00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:56.219
at that point, just because of how ill she was,

00:42:56.380 --> 00:42:58.219
like you dropped the pin and I woke up to make

00:42:58.219 --> 00:43:01.079
sure everything was okay. And what was interesting

00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:04.940
is just with where her hospice medical bed was,

00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:08.079
she was like up high and I was sleeping on an

00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:10.780
air mattress on the floor to where she wouldn't

00:43:10.780 --> 00:43:12.679
have been able to see me no matter how she looked

00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:15.860
in the bed. And so, you know, she described almost

00:43:15.860 --> 00:43:18.440
like she was, you know, up above me looking down

00:43:18.440 --> 00:43:21.940
and I told her, I really think you had an out

00:43:21.940 --> 00:43:24.119
of body experience. And so walk her through what

00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:27.199
that was and how that relates to kind of the

00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:30.739
sort of the death and dying process. And then

00:43:30.739 --> 00:43:32.739
around that same time, I think within a week

00:43:32.739 --> 00:43:34.760
or two, I mean, I didn't like write the date

00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:38.039
down in my journal, but one day she had what

00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:41.139
I would best describe as an open vision. I don't

00:43:41.139 --> 00:43:44.679
think she was sleeping, but she had this very

00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:47.599
real vision of encountering her welcoming committee

00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:50.130
in heaven. A welcoming committee that I'm sure

00:43:50.130 --> 00:43:52.010
your audience knows, usually you encounter friends,

00:43:52.369 --> 00:43:54.949
family, loved ones, people that greet you often

00:43:54.949 --> 00:43:57.289
at what they would describe as the gates into

00:43:57.289 --> 00:44:00.730
the heavenly city or into the third heaven. Lynette

00:44:00.730 --> 00:44:04.449
encountered her maternal grandparents, Pearl

00:44:04.449 --> 00:44:07.630
and Rollin there, who had passed on many years

00:44:07.630 --> 00:44:10.269
previous. She encountered her father, Gerald,

00:44:10.309 --> 00:44:13.150
who had died about 10 years prior. This is the

00:44:13.150 --> 00:44:16.809
most interesting one. She encounters her older

00:44:16.809 --> 00:44:20.190
brother Seth, who he was about three years old

00:44:20.190 --> 00:44:22.750
and he was hit by a drunk driver and died instantly.

00:44:23.030 --> 00:44:24.989
And she was 18 months at the time. So she didn't

00:44:24.989 --> 00:44:28.949
really grow up. Like she had a very slight memory

00:44:28.949 --> 00:44:31.869
of him at 18 months old, but really not anything

00:44:31.869 --> 00:44:35.610
significant. And she encountered him as well

00:44:35.610 --> 00:44:38.309
in her welcoming committee. And so again, we

00:44:38.309 --> 00:44:40.630
talked about that and I really didn't know what

00:44:40.630 --> 00:44:42.469
to do with these things at the time. Cause I'm

00:44:42.469 --> 00:44:45.679
like, We were expecting she could die at any

00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:47.719
time and she lived an additional nine months,

00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:50.559
but processing it, talking with different near

00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:53.460
-death experiences who are close friends. Why

00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:56.280
do you think God allowed this or why did this

00:44:56.280 --> 00:45:01.019
happen? The consensus we reached is in God's

00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:03.760
kindness, he gave her these experiences to prepare

00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:06.559
her for death and the questions she was asking

00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:08.960
and the things she wanted to understand. I think

00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.920
the beautiful thing about it is it was in The

00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:13.940
time frame still when her mind was sound and

00:45:13.940 --> 00:45:16.139
we could have those conversations and process

00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:19.360
and she can understand and kind of prepare mentally

00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:22.119
water her mind was still active and functioning

00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:25.699
and so you know i'm super thankful that i got

00:45:25.699 --> 00:45:29.119
shoved into this space if you will and i feel

00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:31.059
like that is one of the really purposeful things

00:45:31.059 --> 00:45:33.039
that has come of it that you know i was able

00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:35.800
to spend nineteen months just encouraging me

00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:37.780
and my wife she went through the whole cancer

00:45:37.780 --> 00:45:40.349
journey and getting her ready for. Her transition

00:45:40.349 --> 00:45:43.429
to the other side and i'm sure as you encountered

00:45:43.429 --> 00:45:45.489
eric so many of the people who are drawn to near

00:45:45.489 --> 00:45:47.769
the experiences are people who are grieving who

00:45:47.769 --> 00:45:49.590
have lost loved ones and they just want that

00:45:49.590 --> 00:45:52.210
assurance that the person is okay that you know

00:45:52.210 --> 00:45:54.510
they're on the other side in heaven and they're

00:45:54.510 --> 00:45:57.750
gonna see them again and so you that is part

00:45:57.750 --> 00:45:59.730
of what keeps me wanting to work in this space

00:45:59.730 --> 00:46:02.920
and i'm sure you get like i have. messages and

00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:05.099
emails and whatnot where people will tell you

00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:07.679
how these testimonies have impacted them. And

00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:11.000
so with what I'd seen previously with kind of

00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:13.579
third party interactions with people on messages

00:46:13.579 --> 00:46:16.199
and emails, all of a sudden I got to live it

00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:19.639
and directly impact a loved one with these NDE

00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:23.280
testimonies. You know, these stories really do

00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:26.440
change lives and really encourage people. So

00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:29.179
I was able to use all this research and interviews

00:46:29.179 --> 00:46:32.800
to love on my late wife and encourage her. And

00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:35.420
so it was a hard, hard season, but a beautiful

00:46:35.420 --> 00:46:38.000
season at the same time that unknowingly, you

00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.440
know, I feel like God prepared me to steward

00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:43.400
that season well. That kind of hope is really

00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:46.090
what this is all about. Absolutely. My show,

00:46:46.429 --> 00:46:48.389
I assume all of the things that you're doing

00:46:48.389 --> 00:46:50.829
with your show and your books and everything.

00:46:51.909 --> 00:46:54.789
And what a blessing that your wife could receive

00:46:54.789 --> 00:46:58.289
that extra amount of comfort, relieve her from

00:46:58.289 --> 00:47:01.010
some of her anxiety about what was going to happen.

00:47:01.630 --> 00:47:05.610
And I imagine for you and your family as well.

00:47:06.799 --> 00:47:09.519
Yeah. There's a last part I'll throw in for that

00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.920
too. Again, like I implied earlier, just with

00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:14.519
the work I do, because I'm particularly immersed

00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:16.559
in what would be the charismatic side of the

00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:19.320
church in terms of publishing and books. I had

00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:22.519
a friend who is, I would say is a very gifted

00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.760
seer. He can see in the spirit, but he had no

00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:28.619
idea the day Lynette died. It's not like I posted

00:47:28.619 --> 00:47:31.610
it. She had passed. around 530 in the morning.

00:47:32.449 --> 00:47:35.530
That friend texted me several hours later and

00:47:35.530 --> 00:47:39.010
he was like, hey, how's Lynette doing? Did she

00:47:39.010 --> 00:47:42.389
pass away last night? What's going on? Actually,

00:47:43.070 --> 00:47:45.170
she passed away this morning. There's no way

00:47:45.170 --> 00:47:46.989
he would have known this because it wasn't public

00:47:46.989 --> 00:47:49.389
knowledge or shared anywhere. He said, when I

00:47:49.389 --> 00:47:52.349
was waking up this morning, I had this vision

00:47:52.349 --> 00:47:55.230
of Lynette in heaven in what looked like an orchard

00:47:55.230 --> 00:47:58.320
picking apples with Jesus. and, you know, she

00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:01.739
looked happy and well and like Jesus was reassuring

00:48:01.739 --> 00:48:03.699
her that the things that she had prayed for will

00:48:03.699 --> 00:48:06.239
come to pass. And so that kind of bookends the

00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:08.860
story too, you know, to get that kind of a text.

00:48:09.500 --> 00:48:12.619
How beautiful. Picking apples with Jesus. That

00:48:12.619 --> 00:48:16.300
just, that paints a whole picture. Absolutely.

00:48:16.579 --> 00:48:18.619
And like that was a huge encouragement to me

00:48:18.619 --> 00:48:21.340
and my children just on, you know, one of the

00:48:21.340 --> 00:48:23.820
hardest days we've ever faced. So interesting

00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:26.519
to see how even some of the broader relationships

00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:28.960
I have with authors and leaders in my spaces,

00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:32.239
God has used to comfort us and encourage us along

00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:34.940
this journey. Well, I don't know if there's a

00:48:34.940 --> 00:48:38.139
bottom line or a one message to take away from

00:48:38.139 --> 00:48:40.699
this whole conversation. I think one of the things

00:48:40.699 --> 00:48:45.099
is it's good to have the conversations, okay,

00:48:45.420 --> 00:48:48.460
much if not nearly all of what you're hearing

00:48:48.460 --> 00:48:52.219
about NDEs and from experiencers, we can believe.

00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:55.599
we can learn something from. If it happens to

00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:58.699
contradict our beliefs a little bit, don't freak

00:48:58.699 --> 00:49:01.960
out over it, okay? Spend time thinking about

00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:05.699
it. Some of these things I've had too and as

00:49:05.699 --> 00:49:09.360
I've spent time thinking about them and whether

00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:12.960
it's in prayer or scripture study, sometimes

00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:16.920
either an answer comes or just a piece comes

00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:20.420
saying, don't worry about it. And maybe that

00:49:20.420 --> 00:49:24.260
comes out in my philosophy of this whole, hey,

00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:27.480
you just were on the very front doorstep of heaven

00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:30.360
and got this little glimpse. Maybe that's how

00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:32.619
it works for me, maybe a different way for somebody

00:49:32.619 --> 00:49:37.079
else. But the bottom line is there's hope out

00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:40.519
there. If you've lost a loved one, if you're

00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:43.579
worried about what's coming in the future yourself,

00:49:43.579 --> 00:49:47.599
you can find more peace. And these things can

00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:51.070
add to our peace. And I'm very grateful for that.

00:49:51.090 --> 00:49:57.070
And I will forever remember the image of picking

00:49:57.070 --> 00:49:59.949
apples with Jesus. I think that is the beautiful

00:49:59.949 --> 00:50:02.329
one of the day. Thank you, Sean, for being with

00:50:02.329 --> 00:50:06.210
me. And thank you, Eric. My pleasure. I appreciate

00:50:06.210 --> 00:50:08.349
the opportunity to share a little bit of my story,

00:50:08.809 --> 00:50:11.190
my journey. I'm assuming you probably never intended

00:50:11.190 --> 00:50:15.039
to be a player in the NDE space either. It's

00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:17.699
a beautiful privilege, a beautiful ministry even

00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:19.820
to be able to share these stories. And so glad

00:50:19.820 --> 00:50:21.480
I could share some of my journey with your audience.

00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:23.940
I really appreciate it. All right. Take care

00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:27.360
of my friend. Thanks again for listening and

00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:29.679
sharing this podcast. Don't forget to hit the

00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:32.460
follow or subscribe button and sign up for our

00:50:32.460 --> 00:50:35.300
newsletter at roundtriptest .com. If you want

00:50:35.300 --> 00:50:37.860
to share your near -death experience, or if you

00:50:37.860 --> 00:50:40.219
have questions or comments about the show, send

00:50:40.219 --> 00:50:43.780
an email to eric at roundtripdeath .com. Until

00:50:43.780 --> 00:50:45.719
then, I wish you everything good that you're

00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:48.139
looking for in this life and the next.