Caren's NDE After Being Murdered by Her Ex

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0:45 You're going to love today's guest, so let's get right to it. From the time that they pronounced me deaf was a good 45 minutes. They cut my clothes and then they paddled my heart, my heart had stopped. And I could see people screaming and crying, but I didn't realize that was actually my physical body because I was somewhere else. The only thing that I could feel, if you could imagine, absolute love and peace, there wasn't anything else to be felt. I was greeted by people I'd known in the past. I'm back home again. Incredibly safe and felt at home.

1:27 Welcome, welcome to Roundtrip Death, everybody, and I'd like you to give a warm welcome to our special guest, Karen Warren Davis from the Seattle area. Good morning, Karen. Good morning, Eric. How you feeling today? I'm doing really well. It's good to see you. You too. And I know you haven't shared this publicly. You only have with a few people, so please don't be nervous. Please relax. This is a friendly, safe place, and we can talk about hard things here. But before we jump into your NDE, which people are going to absolutely love, by the way, tell us just a little bit about Karen. Who are you?

2:11 Well, I'm a mother of two sons, and I am a grandmother, Cici, as I'm called, of two grandsons now. I am a chef and a caterer, and right now I've been recently even working at Amazon, you know, after everything that happened and everything slowed down. So I do that in their warehouse, which is really fun because I meet a lot of really interesting people and I enjoy that. As a chef, what's your favorite thing to make? What's your specialty? I pretty much do anything. I'm open to trying new things. I love Eggs Benedict. I love to eat it, and I love to make it. So that's probably my favorite thing to do. I'll have that for dinner, breakfast, whatever. So that's one thing that I absolutely love.

2:57 And of course, seafood. Being in the Seattle area, we have a lot of terrific fish and things like that. So that's another thing I really enjoy, too. That's something I very much miss where we are. Up here in the mountains, we're ways from the ocean, and it's hard to get good seafood. So we need to get out to Seattle sometime and enjoy some of that. Well, let's take a step back. Your experience started about four years ago. Would you mind giving us a little bit of background and tell us what led up to the event that happened to you? Well, unfortunately, I was in an abusive marriage for almost five years. Something happened where he attacked me, and then I ended up unconscious.

3:47 And one of the times when I kind of woke up, that's what I guess I should say. It's okay. I know I told you previously that we don't want a lot of details about this abusive relationship, but just so people know how serious this was, what did he do to you that particular day? Well, he had attacked me over something really ridiculous, and he had thrown me on the ground and beat me. I had head into the hardwood floors, and he sat on top of me, and he suffocated me, and I was dead.

4:32 And I woke up for a few seconds. I said to him, please call the A car. He got up and left the house. I collapsed again. I managed to see my phone from a couple feet. I drugged myself over, grabbed the phone, called 911. By the time they showed up, I was unconscious. In that time, I remember being up where it felt really, really warm. Like, let's say you were a beautiful sunny day, and then you felt like you were floating in a pool, a really warm pool, and it felt really wonderful and comforting.

5:13 And like I'd like to describe it as, it felt like if you had, it was a fall day, and you had been outside, and you came in, and you had a really delicious, your favorite cup of soup, and you started eating it, and it felt all warm inside, and you felt all comfortable, and just enveloped by warmth. That sounds so nice. It was. And then it took me back to a feeling of, when I was a child, I had a favorite thing when I was very young. My grandparents had a weeping willow tree. And in the summertime, I would take this old 40s sleeping bag that has satin on the inside of it, and it would get really warm.

5:55 And I would lay out under that willow tree and fall asleep and take a nap. It was my favorite place. And that was kind of how it felt at first. So I was floating, and I just felt like I was in that place, my happy place, if you want to call it. All of a sudden, I looked over, and I saw my father who passed away in 2007. And then I looked kind of in the distance a little bit, and there was a, it looked like there was a sheer like you'd have on a window. And it was keeping me from seeing the people behind it, but I could see their outline of their faces and everything. And I knew it was my grandfather and other relatives that had passed away, had some uncles, and you know, like we all do, relatives that you love.

6:43 And they were all there, and I could see all of them, and I could hear their voices. I'd said to my dad, I looked at him and I said, what's going on? And then he started telling me things that were going to happen in the future. And I thought, this is really strange. Give me an idea. What kinds of, what kinds of things, how far into the future? Well, at the time, a couple months before, my son and daughter-in-law had come over and they told me that they were pregnant with my first grandchild. And at the time, they didn't know what the sex of the baby was. And my father said, oh, by the way, you're going to have a grandson.

7:24 I remember looking at him like, huh? How would you know this? And then he told me, you're going to have another grandson. And I said, what? I'm looking at him, but very, it just felt like it was like 10 minutes of just sitting there, standing there, I guess, looking at him floating, looking at him and thinking, what are you telling me? This is so strange. I just couldn't wrap my brain around it. And then he just started telling me how much he loved me and cared for me and that it was going to be okay. And then I needed to be there for my grandson. And I just, I couldn't understand it. It was really strange.

8:07 And then we looked down. And when I looked down, I could see my body laying on the floor of our living room. And I just, I couldn't take it in. It was like, what? And then they had the yellow numbers around my body, like you see in all the crime shows. And they were taking photographs and taking notes. So they weren't, the paramedics weren't working to revive you. This was more like a crime scene. Apparently they had declared me dead already. It was a crime scene. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I was just watching myself dead, laying there. And I couldn't grasp it.

8:48 It's very hard to grasp one year. Even, you don't, I mean, I've had several spiritual things happen in my life. I had a grandmother that passed away. And the morning she passed away, I hadn't found out yet. And I could smell ivory soap up my nose. And I didn't use ivory soap. And that was what she always used on her hands, showered and whatever. And it was so strong. And I couldn't, no matter how much I walked around the house, that was all I could smell. My dad called me about 30 minutes later until my grandmother had passed away. And I've had other visitations where I smell, cigarette smell in the car with that when I have the thing on the car that only does the air and inside the car. So you don't get outside air. And I don't smoke. And then I realize it's my grandpa.

9:38 It's the same scent that I would get from him. So I've had several spiritual things like that happen. And I have dreams where they're very vivid. So that situation with your grandmother, that's referred to as one type of shared death experience. I don't know if you're familiar with the term. No, I'm not. It doesn't happen when you're with the person when they pass over, or you don't have to be. You can be a long ways away and get some kind of a signal from them. Some people see that deceased person, smell them, feel some kind of touch. So that's really cool that you've had some of these other experiences too.

10:18 Very comforting. Let's go back to the near death experience. I have a couple of things around it first. And that is, if they were already putting investigative things around your body, do you have any idea how long you had been dead? Did they give you any kind of idea and how did you wake up from it? Well, I talked to the major crimes detective about that when I had to go in for an interview and write down everything that had happened that day. Because my husband was in jail at the time and they were charging him with everything he had done. I asked him and he wouldn't respond to me about it.

10:59 I did become friends with him for, I still am friends with him. And he refuses to tell me anything about what happened because he says he just can't talk about it. And I don't know if it's upsetting or he just doesn't want to talk about it because he puts things in a particular place in his mind. So that he doesn't have it take over his life. I'm not really sure. But he refused to talk about it. But I know it was a while because I watched them and I could tell I was looking at the notepad and there were a couple pages there. So it takes a little while to write down a couple pages to take measurements and photographs, things like that.

11:41 How I woke up was I was standing with my dad and listening to him. And I said, it was so warm and I saw my relatives and I missed my dad so much. She was my best friend. I said, I don't want to go. I want to stay. He said, you can't do that. And right in that moment, the investigators took a picture of my face and the flash made me open my eyes. And I heard them yelling that I was alive. And then the next thing I woke up was about six or seven hours later in the ER.

12:22 And they were going when I woke up, they were going to take me up to the ICU. And like an idiot, I said, no, I'm not doing that. And I called my mom to come pick me up and I just walked out. I'm done with this. I need to go home. I should have stayed there in hindsight, but and I did end up there later two times, but for the ICU because of what had happened. Well, yeah, you could have had other complications from this. I did. Absolutely. I mean, I had important organs shutting down and things like that, but that just blows me away that that you had been declared dead long enough that they're actually doing a criminal investigation.

13:02 Yes. That had to have been quite a bit of time. Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm thinking I'm estimating 30 minutes maybe. At least. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was just like I woke up in the but I woke up in the ER. I just remember thinking about like I was laying there and they were cleaning me up and, you know, fixing my my cuts and bruises and all of this. And I just remember laying there thinking what just happened to me. I couldn't understand it. I thought maybe I was dreaming. I just I didn't understand it. So when I got home, I decided to start journaling, which I don't like because I don't want anybody to read what I write.

13:46 Because it could be, you know, mean, but anyway, I started journaling only what I was remembering. Because I thought I seriously thought I was going crazy. I was losing my mind. I started journaling and then I would read through it and then I tried to piece it together. And then I realized I had a near death experience. So I looked up online. It just took my breath away because I realized I had just had the exact same thing. But mine was a little more comforting than other people describe, I suppose. Well, they're all different and they're all over the place. Some are very comforting. Some are hellish.

14:27 Some start hellish and then wind up in a really great place. There is no typical. Yeah, there's no typical NDE at all. Let's talk about more of the detail of what you experienced while you were there. This conversation with your father sounds fascinating. Most people tell me that the conversations there are telepathic versus verbal. What did you experience? It did feel more telepathic than, but we were, we were speaking to each other, but it wasn't like I could hear my voice necessarily. So that was different.

15:07 And, you know, my dad told me he loved me and that he was sorry that he died. He didn't want to die, but it just happened. He was, he had a massive heart attack and went through lanes of traffic and hit a bus on the other side. And his vehicle burst into flames and he died. And I had seen it on the news and didn't realize it was my dad until eight o'clock in the evening when I got a phone call about it. And I remember I had such an incredible relationship with my dad. I didn't feel sadness necessarily. It didn't, it sounds odd, but it didn't bother me. I mean, I was upset because I wasn't going to be able to talk to him anymore, but it didn't necessarily bother me.

15:51 We had a connection that was beyond. We could look at each other and we knew what we were thinking. My oldest son and I have the same thing. We could be walking down the street or in the mall or whatever. And we could look at each other and we will think the exact same thing. We will laugh about it. And my youngest son could be with us and he'll say, what are you thinking? And it's hard. We can't, you know, what do you say? It's just like, well, you know, and so my dad had, my dad and I had that relationship. So I think when this whole thing happened, he was there to greet me, so to speak, because I think whoever knew that I would be able to listen to my dad the most.

16:33 So I think that's why he was sent to me to be the one. And like I said, when my dad passed away, I had to tell my kids and I felt worse for my oldest son because my dad and my oldest son had a similar relationship. We were all sympathetic. The three of us together, it was nightmare at family functions because we all were, you know, doing our thing. But I think that's why my father was sent to me because of the relationship that we had. And it was very close. Yeah, helped you be comforted when you got there and accepting of things when you got there. Tell me about seeing the other people. I believe you said they were, it seemed like they were behind kind of a sheer curtain.

17:14 They were behind a sheer, as I said, like you'd have on your window. And I could see them, my grandfather, my uncles, my grandmother, other people that I really loved were there. No one was there that I didn't like. Let's put it that way. Everyone was there. And it seemed like we were all just floating. It was like this beautiful golden, sunny, beautiful day, but the sun wasn't in your eyes. It was beautiful and it was warm. I think the thing that got me was you could see off in the, like a valley is why I was thinking a lot about this after rethinking everything and writing it down.

17:57 There was like a valley that I could see that was really beautiful with, you know, beautiful flowers and trees and that kind of thing. So I think it was something that is there that isn't necessarily meant to tempt you, but it's just meant to be beautiful so that you don't feel afraid, maybe, was my thought about it. And seeing them, they wouldn't talk to me. I was saying, oh my gosh, grandpa. And he wouldn't talk to me. He just held up his hand and it was just like if I could feel him, like a feeling of love from everybody there, each person who was all filled with love.

18:39 But they wouldn't speak to me because I think, as I said, my dad told me it wasn't my time. I needed to go back. And I think that if they had come out and started speaking to me, it would have been like a family reunion and I definitely didn't want to go then. And I didn't want to go when my dad told me I couldn't stay. It was definitely an interesting experience because you don't know what to expect. You know, my dad telling me about my grandsons and that I was going to be okay, but I needed to take care of my mother, which now I am taking care of her. My mom hasn't been very well. And I didn't really get that at the time. Now I understand it more. Were there any other things in the future that he told you about?

19:21 Just that I was going to be okay and that I would have a good life, you know, you're going to be fine sort of a thing. It seemed like hours, but I know it wasn't hours. So I don't think that I, I'm not sure how long the experience with my father really was because you don't have a clock up there. You just are. You're just being, you're just floating, you're just looking at how the beauty of everything. If not feeling any pain, I have a really bad back and from a car accident and I felt no pain. I just felt like, God, this is terrific. You know, I want to be here. I don't have to feel this pain I've been feeling and dealing with all this stress I've been going through.

20:07 So because this, this situation had been going on for months and months and months and years. I thought, well, he's in, he's in jail now. I don't have to worry about being hurt anymore, but I'm just going to stay here. This is terrific. And then I get sent back and I thought, this is not what I really wanted. Tell me about the future with the two grandsons. Has that come to pass? My oldest grandson is about three and a half and I just had my second grandson on Sunday. Like three days ago. Yes. So well, congratulations.

20:48 Thank you. And I feel very grateful. That was another thing that came out of this. I have a new sense of gratefulness and compassion that I didn't really have before for some. And I don't know, I have no idea why because I'm a very, I want everything done now kind of a thing. But I'm able to sit back and just let things happen a little bit more now. I just take the road less traveled and watch, watch everybody else do what they're going to do. And it's also something that at work, I'm around a lot of people and I see people regularly and I can always tell someone when someone's struggling.

21:30 I have like a sixth sense and it became more prevalent after this experience where I can just look at somebody and I know they don't even have to say anything. I know that they need to be have a friend or whatever, whatever it may be. So it's definitely given me new insight into life. I have people talk to me about things that I don't even understand, but some for some reason they look at me and they just feel that I'm an okay person. So that's something that's came out of it that's been really interesting. Like total strangers come up to you. Yeah, I could, I can be sitting in a restaurant or a library or whatever.

22:11 Somebody will sit down next to me and then they'll just, we'll start talking and then they'll just tell me whatever it is that's bothering them or what have you. And then I'll say, gosh, you know, whatever it may be, if you thought of this or and then they say, you know, I really appreciate that. And I just appreciate you listening. And I always say, sure, not a problem. And I don't ever see him again. You know, I'll give him my number occasionally if I feel that maybe they need to reach out or what have you. That has happened once in a while. And I have a lot of younger people at work that I can tell are struggling with life. You know, they've they're dealing with the pandemic and then you're graduating and you're not going to college and you're trying to work from home, you know, do all these things.

22:54 And they just don't know what to do in life. And I do. I have mentored several people that are in their early 20s at work and help them get through some really difficult things. And they just feel really close to me for some reason. And they tell me that they just say, you, I feel so close to you. I've never felt like that with anyone. So I don't know if it's some type of aura. I don't really know what it is, but it is something that I gained from this experience. When I came out of it, I just felt, like I said, more grateful and waking up in the ICU twice. Once from the initial attack when he sat on me, I developed liquid buildup in my lungs and I was basically suffocating.

23:41 And I woke up in the ICU a few hours later, I was in the ER and I just apparently had passed out and I was there for a week from that. And then the second time after the situation, I developed sepsis and I passed out. And the when I got to the ER, I woke up in the ICU with a part in my neck and it was about a day or so later. And the doctor came in and said that he didn't even he couldn't believe I was alive. Okay, let me just clarify for a second. When you say the second time, was this the second attack or was this still associated with the first one? It was the second. It was a second attack. Let's talk about that for a second.

24:21 Sure. How much later did this happen the second time? It was about two months later. And he had been bailed, maybe a month and a half later, he had been bailed out of jail by his brother. And he was told not to make contact with me. We have a do not contact for another seven years, by the way. He was told not to contact me, but he did. And he came over and he said he wanted to get some of his clothes out of the bedroom, which is where he was when the SWAT team shot pepper spray in there, you know, to get him out for the situation. And I had blocked it off because I didn't want it around the rest of the house. So he had got some clothes and put him in the car. And then he said, Oh, how about if I pick up a pizza and I was just like, I didn't I was so frozen.

25:09 I didn't know what to do. I didn't know. I call the police. Is he going to behave himself? Should I give him this chance? And like an idiot, I said, sure. And the pizza, he ended up having it delivered and he had pizza and then he fell asleep and I was petrified. I started to just get this really sick feeling in my stomach. He woke up and he looked at me and he grabbed me again and did almost the same thing. And I managed to get away and run over to my neighbors. Well, from that attack, he had been sitting on top of me on my lower body.

25:51 And apparently he had crushed my like bowel area and that kind of stuff. And that was how I developed sepsis. Because you just, you don't know, you don't really feel it. It just happens. And I just, I called my mom and said, you know, I just don't feel right. And she said she, I don't remember this. I vaguely remember her coming into the house because I had unlocked the door for her. And I sat back down in the living room and she said she came in and sat down next to me and I started having seizures because the sepsis had taken over my body. Did you die this time as well?

26:31 Well, I didn't die that I know of, but I did feel a warm feeling when I was waking up. And I just felt, and the funny thing was, is I seriously thought that I saw my dad in the hallway, but I thought, oh, that's so bizarre. And I was so out of it when I woke up. I didn't, I didn't understand, but I do feel that I did see him. Again, a second time. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Well, I'm sorry you had those horrible things happen to you. I'm glad you had some beautiful things as well.

27:13 It is. And that's, that's the way I look at it. I don't look at the things that happened. I look at it as I'm really grateful that I had the experiences that I've had. Because if he hadn't done what he had done, I wouldn't have had them. But I know that sounds very bizarre. I have one friend that I've said that to. And I've never told him about the entire experience. I just told him, you know, kind of like, okay, this, this is this, but I'm not, I'm not hateful towards my now ex husband. I want him to just happily, we've laid a happy life now is what I want him to do. Because I'm fine. And I have these experiences and I don't want to say really that I thank him for it because I don't thank him for being beaten up and all of these things, obviously.

28:03 But I'm hopeful for, for seeing my father and learning whatever I've, I learned there that gave me this sense of grateful being grateful and having compassion, more compassion for others. Before this happened, were you a believer in God and an afterlife? I was. Yes, I was very much. I did. I do believe in that. And I always had believed in that. My kids and I are Catholic. And I don't necessarily follow the religion as I told my kids, and they both went to Catholic high school.

28:43 So I told my kids that I want them to look at religion as when you need it, it's going to be there. When you're feeling that something is just so hard that you can't deal with it. Pray to center yourself and use that. I don't feel that you have to go to church every Sunday and be the person that swears all week long, then goes to church Sunday and tries to, you know, be absolved of everything because I put my check in the pouch and I took my communion. And now I can go out and start again this week. You know, don't be that person. Just be a grateful good person every day and try to think of others is what I've always taught my children to and they're both very compassionate people. And they have they have jobs where they're actually because of their outlook.

29:36 They've actually been in a higher job than other people because they can read people really well. So I'm just curious. You mentioned that you were cat you are Catholic. Have you had the opportunity to talk to your priest about this, not in any kind of a confessional kind of way because you have nothing to confess you did nothing wrong but just to get some feedback or some spiritual guidance from it. Well, actually, I'm friends with a priest. I talked to him about it at his house, because we're close friends, and I told him about what happened and he just looked at me like wow.

30:19 He's obviously been there when people have died, you know, that type of thing. And he has not experienced it himself. And he said he's he's had one or two other people tell that tell him this, but nothing to the extent that I had they just had like a brief flash of something or what have you. And I have talked to him about it, and he does believe in an afterlife himself to, and he's a Catholic priest. And I talked to him occasionally about things and, you know, he, he totally believes, you know, I'm not a crazy person that this really did happen. And that he thinks it's good to be able to share it with other people so that they know not to be afraid and that's something that I'm also not afraid of death anymore.

31:06 I have two uncles that passed away in the mid 70s and a car excuse me into plane crash together. And I used to have nightmares and I would hide under the bed because I would be afraid of being closed in a casket. And I can't be in a closed place when I go for an MRI I have to be knocked out I can't have my eyes open in that thing I have a panic attack. So that's something that that has changed. You know, since that I'm not afraid of death anymore, because I know I know it's a better place. And I'm not going to seek it. But when it happens, I know I'm going to be okay with it. So I'm not afraid of it anymore.

31:47 And I've told I told my mom that once and she she said, Oh, I didn't know that. And I said, Yeah, are you going to go to a better place and it'll be fine. That's great to hear that. I'm also glad that you had a good experience with your priest. Yeah, it sounds like he's a very good open minded person. Some people don't have such a good experience with clergy when they mentioned these experiences. So I'm glad that yours was positive. Yeah, I'm very lucky. I have a really great core group of friends and he's one of them. You know, I have all types of friends that do different things and what have you. But I've never really told anybody, I've never told anybody the entire story because it's so it's kind of involved and it takes a few minutes and when you're sitting having coffee, it's not like something you go hey, by the way, by the way, I died the other day. Yeah. Well, and some people don't like to talk about death at all. Anyway, as I said, when my dad passed away, I felt just a sense of it's just what it is.

32:55 You know, my sister was crying and screaming and the whole caboodle of things and I was just standing looking at her like, seriously, you know, I don't get it. And I didn't get it. And I have a fiance that passed away. I was with him for 10 years. And I found him dead. And I called the A car and they came and I said, can you give him something to wake him up and they're like, No, he's pretty dead. He was laying on the couch watching TV and we were supposed to go on St. Patrick's Day and I was coming over to go get the stuff at the store. He was a chef too.

33:37 We're going to go to the store to get everything and I walked in and he didn't answer me and I was like, Oh, that's weird. And I walked over and I'm like, Well, here's sort of green looking. That's interesting. The A car came and you know, I got questioned by the police and all that like they typically do. And I just, when they were done, I just grabbed my, he was at his parents house. His dad had passed away a previous year and they were waiting for this grandfather to die. So he had been staying in his family's house. And so I'd gone over there, like I said, and I went over to my mom's where I was staying at the time. And I walked in and my mom's like, Oh, how was your day? And I said, Larry died. Didn't you get the message? So no, I said, I'm going to bed. And I just went up to bed and I was like, What am I going to do? It's over.

34:25 You know, we had a great relationship and it was a great 10 years. And I remember that night dreaming about him very vividly. But I don't think I understood it at the time. I do now that he was it was coming me to say I'm happy now because he always wanted to be with his dad. They went hunting and fishing at this particular place that he would go to and we'd go camping. It was Corfu. It was just a street. The street name was Corfu. But he called it Corfu and I thought it was like some special place. We drove out there the first time and all it was was a ratty lot with whatever it was that they were doing. So but anyway, he said, I'm okay. I'm at Corfu with my dad. And I remember in the dreams, like thinking what? And I like I said, I've reflected a lot on this and I thought he did he did come to me.

35:18 And I didn't really understand it at the time, but I felt such comfort just knowing that we had a good relationship and it was what it was. And I've sort of adopted that outlet because there are certain things you can't control in life. Sometimes it's better to just step back and let it happen and appreciate it. And when my father died, I told everyone they said, gosh, aren't you upset? You know, it was all over the news and all this stuff and we had news crews at our houses and all. It was quite the situation.

35:58 I just said, no, I said, I had all these years with my father that were wonderful. And some people never get that their entire lives, their parents die when they're 80 or 90 and they can't stand to be around them. And I had a wonderful life with my dad. We had a great relationship and I'm just going to be happy that I had those years with him. And that was the way I looked at it. And people thought I was really, really crazy where you are more upset. And I just said, I don't need to be. Okay, couple other things before we wrap up. You mentioned that you don't the few people that you have told about this, you haven't really told the whole thing.

36:39 Is there anything else about it that you can remember that you'd like to tell us? You know, I can't think of anything other than like I said, it was just a warm cup of soup kind of feeling, you know, going back to my childhood favorite thing was really interesting to me. Because I would, when I couldn't sleep, I would, you know, they tell you to think of something that will help you go to sleep. So I would always think of that, that time of laying under that willow tree on the warm sleeping bag to make myself sleep. And it was just like something that I would I still do it to this day. So when I had that experience when I was dead.

37:27 I thought that was sort of crazy that my favorite experience was what I envisioned and what I felt. Yeah, it was just a really incredible thing and I feel very fortunate to have had it. All right, Karen. Hey, I really appreciate you trusting us with sharing here. Are there any final thoughts you'd like to leave with the listeners? Well, I just want them to realize that we're all afraid of death at some point. It's something that's an unknown that we don't understand. But to realize that there is something when you pass away, you probably will not come back to be able to relive it.

38:12 And it will be your final moments. But just to understand that you're not going to be alone. People that love and care about you are going to be there to take you to where it is the ending is because I didn't get to the very end to get to the very end. And it's going to be OK not to be afraid and to understand that being compassionate for others is a really important thing in life. Anyway, thank you for having me on your show. I really appreciate it. That is very comforting. Thank you for being here, Karen.

39:10 Thank you.