#240 - Rev. Bill McDonald Spiritual Warrior & His 3 NDE's

0:00 One of life's greatest questions is what happens to us after we die? Is death the end or a new beginning? Welcome to the Round Trip Death Podcast. In this show, we listen to first-hand accounts of people who have gone beyond the veil and return to talk about it. We are so happy to have with us today, Reverend Bill McDonald out of California. Reverend Bill, how are you? Well, I know that you're in the hustle bustle of that big city, Daniel, today, so I don't want to hold you from your pointed rounds since you're some kind of county official there.

0:41 You're not supposed to tell people where I live. I'm supposed to be the anonymous one here. I just say I'm in Utah. So hopefully people will ignore what they just heard. Anyway, how's the weather out in California? As you can tell, I'm bundled up today. I'm actually wearing socks for the fourth day this month. So it's a cold day in California when you wear socks. That's really a shame. For those of us that woke up with, I think it was 11 degrees out this morning. Anyway, I would love for our listeners to get to know you a little bit before we jump into our favorite subject, which is talking about near-death experiences.

1:25 Can you just take one or two minutes and tell us something about you so people have an idea of who Reverend Bill is? Well, I would say I'm unique, but then everybody in the world is unique. But in my particular case, my background is so varied. Not only am I an author and a public speaker, when I say speaker, I go around the world. I go to India, South America, and Asia, and across the United States and Canada and Mexico and wherever else to talk. But I've also been involved in making documentary films as an advisor or been in them. I'm a spiritual coach.

2:06 I teach meditation, yoga. I am a scuba diving instructor for about 50 years. I mean, you name it, I've kind of got my fingers in a lot of different things. But the most important job I have now at this age is grandfather, number one job, grandfather. Isn't that an awesome one? How many do you have? Six. And I got one still in high school, and he graduates this year. That's really cool. That's fun. Well, let's go back in time. You've had more than one NDE, by the way. So let's go back to when you were a child and talk about a really neat spiritual experience you had back then.

2:50 Okay, it started off, I started off, I was so young, I was, I was speechless. I started off my life, and I've always had this inner conversation or outer conversation with with the divine. Other people may have imaginary friends or whatever, but I always felt like I was communicating with with God or with Jesus or with somebody or angels or something. I always felt that connectiveness, that that energy was protecting me. And when I was eight years old, I got extremely sick. I mean, literally, definitely sick.

3:31 I started off as the mumps, and the mumps weren't treated, and then it got to be strep throat and then it got to be eye infection. And then it got to be pneumonia, lungs got infected, then it got to be the kidneys, kidneys got infected. And everything just kind of went downhill, started shutting off. Finally, they sent me home from school because they saw I was sick. And the doctor came, the doctor came to my house. You remember, you're old enough to remember house calls? No, no, I guess I am not that old, but I've seen them on TV. Yeah, I mean, they weren't fiction. They actually have. Doctor came to the house and said, this this kid is he's dying.

4:12 You got to get him to the doctor, get him to the hospital. So I was taken to the hospital. As soon as I got there, they put me on a gurney, strapped me down. I was eight years old, never been away from home before. And they told my parents that they didn't think I was going to make it, you know, that they should be prepared for the possibility I was going to be dead. And then my parents left and then they rolled me out of the room and they rolled me into an isolation ward, which was outside the main building in a wooden building. And then they went to me. My lungs were filled up with fluid and I could hardly breathe. And they punched holes in my thumb in my lungs and they pumped fluid out. And but my kidneys were really badly gone.

4:55 And the whole system, everything was just, you know, one thing goes. The next thing goes, everything was shutting down. So they were fully expecting to have me be terminal. But they took care of me, got rid of that, put me to bed in a room all by myself, first time away from home, totally by myself, turn the lights off. And there I am in a dark room, no nurse, nobody coming by to hold my hand and say, how are you doing? How do you feel, kid? No, no parents, no nothing, totally alone. I'm laying there in bed feeling really lonely, you know, it's a and in great pain. And then all of a sudden in the total darkness, I feel light.

5:39 And I mean that both ways, light, like light weight and light like L.I.G.H.T. like light shining on you. I felt light and it was like my body and I were separating. And I realized that I was not the body because as I was going through this separation between the body, the physical body and the real me, I could look down and I could see this poor child, this young boy laying in this bed that I'm thinking, well, I feel sorry for him. I'm glad I'm not him because he looks pretty bad. But there was this awareness that that not that's not me.

6:20 That's not the real me. I'm the me that's watching this, that's observing all this. And so I'm kind of hovering up over my body and the room starts to lighten up more and more with total darkness to illuminated. And it was like clouds floating in there. It's like I was in a cloud. Imagine flying through a cloud in the sky when it looks like with a puffiness. That was it. It was just it was bright lights. And I was beginning to feel very calm, very peaceful. I was feeling loved, very loved.

7:03 I mean, it was like it was like the universe was hugging me. It was like a million Italian grandmas were hugging you. I mean, it was that kind of love. It was like, you know, expected to see God come out and pinch my cheeks and say, I love you. I mean, it was just that kind of feeling. I was just feeling so blissful and it felt so right. And there was no fear. And I and I when I thought about my body, I looked down and I saw that it was no attachment. And when I returned to that body or was a part of that body, it didn't matter to me at that stage. I was just feeling great. And I said, totally painless.

7:43 And I realized that I wasn't connected. The body was lately laying there literally lifeless. It wasn't moving, wasn't breathing. And yet there I was. And it felt natural. It felt like, yes, this is the way it always is. You know, we're not really that body. So that kind of went through this revelation at that age that this is this is the real you that's that's not the body. And then I looked up and I saw the clouds and pictures and images started to form and now realize that when you talk to and you've talked to many near death experiencers and they're old and they and they they die.

8:27 They have a moment of death and they go through a life review and they go back on their past. Well, eight years old, I got no past to go back on. What do you look at? So it's like mine is going forward. I'm doing a review of things that are going to happen in my life in the future. Major things. Can we call it a preview instead of a review? Exactly. Good, good terminology is exactly what it was. But at the time, I was kind of it took me a while to kind of figure it out. I'm looking at that and I'm identifying with the information being presented with the images on these cloud like things.

9:08 I'm seeing I'm seeing what I believe to be the president United States. John F. Kennedy, but I didn't know Kennedy was. I didn't know his name. But later on, I recognized the image. I saw Kennedy being assassinated in Texas, you know, right in the back of a car and this guy falling over. My vision was a little different than what the Warren Commission said. I mean, I saw another shooter. So what do I know? Maybe a flaw, you know, maybe a flawed vision, but anyway, I saw more than one shooter. And then I saw in high school, meeting this beautiful girl. And I knew when I'm looking at this, because I could see future.

9:50 This was the girl that I was going to marry. And I was going to spend the rest of my life with this this woman. I know when I met her, then that's the one I'm going to marry. And then I saw houses I was going to live in and I saw things and saw places I was going to work. And then I saw this great war. Now at eight years old, the only war I ever heard about was the Korean War, because I saw that newsreel footage back then. In those days, believe it or not, they had news newsreels. When you went to the movie theater, you had a newsreel, right? It come in tracks and cartoons, two features at the movies and a serial on Saturday. Right. Flash Gordon. So what I remember all this and it didn't look like that.

10:31 But this war had helicopters and had a funny looking helicopter look like a tadpole, which I know now is like a Huey. They hadn't even been invented there. This was like 1954. They hadn't even been invented yet. And there's these helicopters tonight. I find myself sitting behind a what looks like a machine gun on one of these helicopters flying around in this war is going on. And I see myself in battles. I see myself crashing. I see myself getting shot at, shot up, blown up. I see all kinds of things happening. But the good news on that is I see myself after the war. I mean, oh, I didn't get killed there.

11:13 That's all right. That's a good thing. Right. Always a good thing. But I also realize as I'm seeing these things that if I'm seeing forward to the future, then that means I'm not dying now. That means I got to go back to that sick, damaged body that I'm, you know, that I just abandoned and live to the point where I get to this future. And the thought was a little bit painful because I knew the body I was going to have to go back into. But I saw the future for about, as it turned out, about almost 59 years until I was about 59 years old. So it was about 50 years forward in time.

11:55 And while I'm watching that, there was a couple of numbers that were flipping. There was a 29 and then the two would flip over, look like a five. So it was 29, 59. I had no clue what that meant at the time. Later on when we're talking and discussing my second near death experience, I'd say where those numbers go. OK. I just had this. So I thought at the time I go, well, 29, 59 is something going to happen to me at 29? Am I going to die at 29 or 59? Maybe, you know, I didn't know. So I had all this forward knowledge of things and events that were going to happen to me and some events that were going to happen in the world.

12:38 And so then the clouds started fading and it was like a vacuum. It was like, and I'm, I'm sucked down into my little frail, weak, skinny, sick body that was suffering. And I spent the next one year, almost one full year in the hospital, most of it in isolation or by myself or the few other people in the room. During that time, I had no visitors. So my parents would come once a week on the weekend for 15, 10 to 15 minutes. The rest of the time I was totally by myself. No school, no toys, no television, no radio, no record player, no magazines, no coloring books, nothing.

13:23 And people go, oh, that's so terrible. But what happened was that year of isolation and total bed rest wasn't allowed to go anywhere. I had to stay in bed. Taught me a great deal about myself and my inner life because I was able to, to use my mind to take journeys and trips. And I, and I, and I made up these meditations and things like I would hold my eyes and I pushed my eyes in so they would see colors. And I was looking at what turns out to be the spiritual eye. And then I would pray to Jesus or pray to God.

14:03 And I spent all my time just conversing and talking with God. And I didn't care if he answered me or not. It was like, I felt in love. I felt this love brewing for God. And I had all that time. I had nothing to do all day. So that's pretty much what I did. And I learned to take trips. And then on my mind, I wanted to go to, I just read the book at eight years old. I just read the book, Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda. Now all kids read that, right? I mean, come on. It's up there, right? And there was a chapter there about him meeting this avatar, which I didn't know what the word was, avatar, whatever that is.

14:50 And then anyway, this great being Babaji. And there was a chapter on that. And then met him in a place called this cave that they call Babaji's Cave. And at the time I read that, I go, I'm going to Babaji's Cave. It's one of the last things I'm ever going to do. I'm going to find Babaji's Cave. At that time it wasn't publicly known where it was at. It wasn't a place you could tour to. I didn't do anything about it till I was in my fifties, but that was my pledge. I'm going, no, I'm going to Babaji's Cave. And I pictured myself going there and everything. And I saw myself as an older man going there. I didn't, but as I grew up, I kept trying to get there, you know, take a trip there.

15:34 And I tried all kinds of various ways. So in high school, I met my future wife. And I'm happy to say that 53 years later, we're still hanging together. Congratulations. That's amazing. We dated in my senior year. And I think we actually met when we were 14 in our freshman year, but we didn't start dating till my senior year at 17. And then I broke up with her because I knew I was going to marry her, but I also knew I had to go to Vietnam and she was going to go to UC Berkeley, go off to college and all this. I knew all this other stuff was coming. And I hitchhiked to Europe and crossed the world and did all kinds of things.

16:19 So I couldn't be tied down. It was too early. I knew it wasn't the right time. And of course, she didn't understand that. And you break it up with me. Well, you know, that was like a bad thing, right? So in our senior year, November 22nd, Kennedy was assassinated. Two weeks prior, I'm telling my school teachers, I'm telling the principal and I'm telling other people, hey, the president of the United States is going to get shot and killed when he goes to Dallas, Texas. I've seen it. What do you mean you see it? No, I've seen it. I've seen it. Right. I saw those visions in the hospital. Right. And I had my near death experience and I started dreaming it again every day for two weeks.

17:04 Every time I went to bed at night, I dreamt it. And it was really weird. I dreamt it in black and white, just like it was on black and white television. There was no color TV back then. So it was just like I was watching it on television. And I knew that it was going to happen. Now, unlike today, if some young, young guy in high school went to the principal and he said the president was going to get shot and then the next week the president gets shot, they'd have the police, the FBI. You're in jail. They'd be all over me. Right. I mean, I'd be interrogated. Nothing happened. Right. This happens. And they just go, oh, how'd you know? Well also, I'm wondering after it happened, did you feel any guilt?

17:47 Like couldn't I do something about it? Because no one would listen to you. Oh, no, who's going to listen to a 17-year-old kid going, hey, don't go, hey, president, don't go to Texas. Yeah, that's not going to happen. But how did you feel when it happened? Well, that's the first, that's an interesting question because that was one of my big issues growing up, especially when I went to Vietnam. When you know something's going to happen to somebody and something not good, and what's the definition of good, right? Like, you know, somebody getting killed or somebody getting wounded or a helicopter's going to crash and burn. I knew these things. And when I went to Vietnam, I went there in 1966, October 66.

18:33 I was a crew chief door gunner on a Huey helicopter. I found myself sitting behind a machine gun just like I foresaw in my preview, my life preview. Right. Well, let me stop you for a second, because you've got such an amazing story from Vietnam. And that's because of spiritual experiences you had ever since this eight-year-old experience. Would you rather skip ahead to your second near-death experience first, or do you want to hit on Vietnam now? Let's hit on this for a moment. OK, let's do it. There's one story in particular, which I think, you know, if you go online, somebody goes to my website, or they go to my Facebook page and read my books, they go, oh, you're a hero.

19:20 Look at this. You got a stainless flying cross, bronze star, purple heart, 14-year-old medals, et cetera, et cetera. What they don't know is the bravest thing I ever did was disobey direct order in combat and be charged with mutiny. And it was the bravest thing I ever did. I didn't got no medal for it. They don't give you a medal for disobeying orders. But I saved 30-some lives. And it's because we're flying over jungle. I got a new pilot. And this officer goes, he looks down this jungle and he sees these troops, looks like troops that look like troops, black pajamas marching through this jungle.

20:00 They look like they had weapons on their soldier. And we're up there and he's saying, look, there's VC down there, just Viet Cong. Mac, he called you Mac, right, because McDonald's. Because Mac, get on your gun. Shoot him. Shoot him. And he's got a 260 machine gun that fires 760 rounds a minute. A minute. I mean, that's like firepower, right? Yeah. You could cut a house in half. Yeah. There's 7.62 millimeters. I mean, they're like two times or more the size of an M16. I mean, they're huge rounds. So he's telling me, give you order. Fire those guys.

20:40 So he swings the helicopter around. He's got a machine gun trained right on these guys. And there's like about 30 something of them. And there's a guy in the front. And it looks exactly what he said they were. But I go, no, I've seen this before. I knew intuitively, no, deja vu, right? Deja vu. Back when I was eight years old, I go, no, this is not what it appears to be. I wasn't exactly sure what it was. But I knew intuitively, don't fire. So I took my hands off the machine gun. I go, no, sir, not firing. It's not what you think it is. And he got mad at me and he gave me direct orders. And he told me if I failed to follow his orders, he was going to charge me with the failure to follow orders in combat and et cetera, et cetera.

21:29 And then I said, no, I'm not firing because it's not what it looks like. It's a mistake. So he swung the helicopter around the other side and the gun around the left side, he gave him the same order. And a guy on the other side had been flying with me for about four or five months. And he goes, sir, he says, I've been flying with McDonald. And when he has a feeling, there's always a reason. So I was right. He says, if he ain't firing, I ain't firing. So now this major, this pilot is getting really upset. And he goes, you know, both of you disobeyed a direct order. He says, that's mutiny. He says, I'm going to see it to it that you guys get the death penalty or life in prison.

22:13 You disobeyed a direct order. I'm telling you to do it. I'm going to charge you. So this guy, here's the guy that deserved a medal because he didn't have the feelings I had. He didn't know what I knew. And he goes, no, if McDonald's not doing it, I'm not doing it. Now that's guts. Had I been wrong about what follows in the story, had I been wrong, I was 21 at the time. I'm 76 going on 77. I would have still been in jail today had they not executed me. I would have got a life sentence. That's a long time, a whole wasted life, right? So finally I convinced the pilot.

22:56 I said, fly down there. I'm on my gun. If it's bad guys, they're going to shoot at me, I will shoot back and we'll take care of the situation. So we flew down about a hundred feet over and it turns out it's a bunch of children from the local village, the Hamlet being marched down to the community garden by a Catholic priest in a black robe. And all these kids are in black pajamas and they didn't have weapons on their shoulders. They had shovels, rakes, holes, tools for the garden. Had I fired, I would have killed 30 something children and a priest and it has to be a Cardinal Synod of some kind.

23:41 It's got to be a bad one, right? So when they saw what it was, I mean, I couldn't see the face of the pilots, but they have a helmet on and they're facing and I'm in the back seat, right? So I don't know. I imagine they'd probably turn a sheet of white. But that pilot ever since then, the rest of his time in Vietnam, he was so nice to me. So nice to me, but he didn't put me in for metal for that. I don't think there's a medal for that. No, no, it's a, but it's a, yeah, it's interesting, but that was the bravest thing I did. And yet, you know, I got all these medals and I got put in for Silver Star and I got all this other stuff.

24:23 And those things, I wasn't a rogue because, and I said this in another interview once, the real heroes are afraid. They don't know what's going to happen. They don't know if they're going to get killed or wounded or lose a limb. And yet they do it. Me, I knew I wasn't going to get killed. What's brave about that? I know I get out of this. So I go ahead and do these things. That's not bravery. That's just intuition at work. Anyway. Now let's go forward. Realize that 50 years or so pass. Remember my desire to go to Babaji's cave when I was eight years old.

25:03 Yes. Still had that desire. And after several failed attempts to get to India, you know, things didn't work out. Anyway, I'm retired finally. And I'm going, okay, I'm getting up there. I'm almost, I'm almost 59. I got a few months. I'm going to be 59 years old. And I kept remembering that tumbling numbers. Remember the two that turned to a five, five, nine, two, nine. And I'm going, well, I didn't die at 29, but I got pretty sick. A lot of things happened. Maybe I'm going to die at 59. Maybe I need to go to India now because that was my thing. Got to go to India before I die.

25:44 Right. Got to go to Babaji's cave. So I'm there with a friend and we're traveling. We finally get to this ashram up in the Himalayan mountains that is the guardian, the guardianship of this cave and has a lock on it and bars and keeps vandals away. And it's kind of secret. And you have to have a guide to take you up there because you can't find it. So I show up there and then Swami was there and he's getting ready to leave the next day. And he's has everybody's gone off in the village to some special ceremony celebration. And he goes, he says, I don't have anybody to take you there.

26:25 He says, the only way you can go there is if you go there on your own and I don't think you can find it. And I said, try me. So he gives me these instructions and the instructions are, well, you leave the ashram, you go down here about 15, maybe 20 miles. You'll see a couple of roads, but don't take those. Take the road that looks like that's probably the road. This is the instructions. That's probably the road. Take it to the left, maybe to the right, but I think it's the left. Go down that road till you got no choices and then take a dirt road that you look at, stop and then hike down. Do you see a bunch of trails coming into that? And then you'll see a trail marker takes you to the top. And then how do you get in the cave?

27:06 And he gave me some keys. He used to open up this and I said, he says, but good luck. And I said, look, I may never come this way again. I'm going to see that cave, even if it kills me. That was my words, even if it kills me. Right. So he says, okay, but be back by five o'clock or five 30. And because he locks up the ashram, these big gates and all your stuff will be locked inside. You'll have to stay in the car. So we take off early in the mornings. We're going down the road and my driver does know where he's going. And I finally go, well, okay, turn here. Okay. So he turns and we got to go, okay, turn there.

27:48 Okay. Stop over there. And then we get, and we start walking and my friend's kind of scratching his head going, he had no clue. And I said, no, no, I'm just, just go with the intuition here. And so we get there and we see a sign that says, well, I would just cave in. It's got an hour. The only trouble is somebody's taking it up from the trailhead and they thrown it and we found it on the road with no idea where the trail's at. And we go down there and there's about 10 cow trails, you know, animal trails. So it's one of those. So we get on one and we're hiking. It was supposed to take 90 minutes, two hours to get to this cave and it's four and a half, five hours. We're hiking. We didn't bring coats. We didn't bring matches. We didn't bring a flashlight.

28:29 We didn't bring food. We didn't bring any water. And we're up at altitude in Himalayas. And I was hot and sweaty. And then I thought, well, I'm okay. I'm not sweating anymore. Cause I was just drenched. It's almost like I wasn't sweating. I mean, that's a bit of clue. You stop sweating when you're getting dehydrated, right? Yeah, that's a bad sign. Yeah, yeah. Bad sign. And then I had dysentery. In fact, the three weeks before I got there, I had lost 18 pounds from dysentery. I was just having fumes going in, fumes coming out. So I was really weak and I was having trouble. And I was having chest pains and I was having trouble with, I had epilepsy and I was having trouble with my head and everything.

29:14 I was not doing good. Finally, as I'm getting blurry eyed and things aren't going right, my chest is pounding like I'm having a heart attack. We see this temple on top of this hill. We go up the top, we got the keys, we open it up and they built a temple up there, Babaji's temple. And I went inside and I'm laying there on the temple floor because I'm just practically dying. And I caught my breath and I knew I just had a short distance to go to the cave, probably another 100 meters, but it was uphill. And caught my breath. And then we hiked the last bit, got to the cave, unlocked this metal door that had bars on it like a jail. And we went inside.

29:55 There was blankets on the floor of the cave. I brought with me several pieces of, I think four typewritten pages, both sides, number 10, Adesia, no spaces, just minimal spaces and this full page. I wrote down and typed a name of everybody I could think of that I've ever met as a child, doctors, friends, teachers, family, enemies, bosses, people in NAM, people that I fought against, what I remember what they looked like, I'd describe them, beggars that I helped or didn't help or somebody on the side of the room. I put down everybody I could think of on this list of four pages.

30:36 And when I went into this temple, just so they'd done in other spots, like at the Ganges and other places, I'd read these and ask God to bless all the names of the people. Because I figured these people were never going to get to Babaji's cave, never in their lifetime. But I had them there and mentally I read them and visualize them. Some people I couldn't remember their name, never knew their name. God knows who they are. God knows, he'll sort it out. God knows who they are, right? So I read all the names, said a prayer for them, put it back in my pocket. I skip ahead and I'll come back. I ended up taking that list to the Ganges River at sunrise a couple of weeks later, came out on a boat and I read the list of names and asked for a blessing for them.

31:24 And then I took a match and I burned this list to ashes and let the ashes fall on the river just as the sun was just starting to gleam onto the waters of the Ganges. So it was a beautiful orange morning. It was just, and then, so anyway, so that list traveled with me through all these temples and places, holy places in India. Anyway, so we leave the temple or the cave and we're coming back and I'm like just as just pounded crazy and I'm dizzy and we're lost and we got to time, we got to get back for it gets dark. And I'm standing on this ledge, cliff.

32:04 It's about 30 foot drop down and thank God that it had a couple of small ledges down about six or eight feet and there was a two foot ledge and then that kind of thing. So when I'm standing here and my heart's going boom, boom, boom, pounding, you can almost see it, my shirt moving and all of a sudden it stopped pounding and blackness. And I fell and apparently bounced on each of those ledges down 30 feet. And I landed on this big boulder at the bottom about the size of a Volkswagen bug, just a big old rock. And I'm laying there on my back.

32:46 You would think 30 feet, you broke your back, right? 30 feet, I'm laying up there and I'm looking at the sky. And then it was in my mind, I'm thinking the Simpsons, you know, that shows up the symptoms and shows the clouds open up. It was like I'm looking at the clouds. It's like the clouds are kind of opening up and next thing I know, I'm up in the clouds. And I'm looking down and I'm going, wait a minute, I've done this before. We've had this dance and I looked down at this body down there and it's in pain, it's hurting, it's laying on the rock. It's not breathing, it's not moving, it's not twitching, it's not doing nothing. And I'm going, oh, well, if this is death, then I've just been to Babaji's cave, it's okay.

33:34 It's okay. I got my bucket list. That was the top of my bucket list. I did it. Yeah, since you were eight years old, for those that haven't heard of Babaji's cave, what's the significance of it? This cave back in 1860 something and 50 something, at some date well before a hundred and something years before I was born, this yogi, Larry Masha, was on an assignment for his company and he decided to take a hike and he was hiking and he kept hearing somebody calling his name and he went to follow the sounds and climbed up this mountain and found this cave. And this cave was this avatar, this ancient Rishi that was waiting for him in the cave and blessed him and taught him a meditation technique called Kriya Yoga and reincorporated back in the world, which a lot of organizations now teach and different people teach.

34:32 So that was like a big thing in the yoga community, the meditation, because so yoga and I wrote about it like that was a big change in world energy when this happened in that cave. And then he talked about all the neat stuff that happened there. And that's why I kind of wanted to see it. I thought, wow, what a beautiful place to go, right? I want the energy there. So there I am laying down on my body is laying down on this rock. And is your buddy just yelling, you know, he's dead, he's dead or something? He's a little crazy. I'm not paying attention to him, but he's up 30 feet looking down and I'm up here looking at him looking down and going, hey, I'm up here. Hey, you know, hey, you know, but he's looking down there.

35:13 And then all of a sudden, as I'm looking down there, there's a huge, I don't know if there's any other thing when you're talking about a cobra crawling over your body, there's only one size huge, right? Aren't they all huge that crawl over your body? Right. So my wife reminds me, I try to tell the story. She says, first time he told a story, it was only six, seven feet. I said, last time he was a king cobra was 50. I said, well, it was huge. You know, it was huge. So now I just say it's huge, right? But I, it came out of this grass and I see it crawling over my legs and then it crawls into the grass and then inside, but I can't see the tail and the head at the same time, grass, the tails in and the heads, you know, so it's moving.

35:53 So I can never see the beginning and the end of this, but I'm so excited because I love snakes craziness. I love snakes and I feel, I feel love in my heart. But I'm up there. I don't have a heart, but my body has a heart. I feel love in the heart. It was like jumpstarted. It was like those paddles you get clear and I jump up on the rock and I stand up and I take a breath and I'm breathing and I got a pulse again and a snake is still crawling across my shoes. So I'm reaching down and I'm trying to grab it. When I'm trying to grab this, of course, this is the only going to hear this, but I'm showing you with my hands. I got both of my hands wrapped up trying to wrap around the snake, the diameter of the snake.

36:38 And there's a couple of inches that I'm not touching and I can't fully grab the snake. It's that fat. So I don't know how big or how much it weighed, but it was a big snake. And so it's sleeping through the grass and I'm, I'm after it in my sandals, going through grass chasing and trying to grab a very large Cobra. And I chased it to a little tiny trickling waterfall. It was only about seven, eight, nine feet tall trickle of water. And the snake went up to our fall and crawled into a little hole behind it, curled up and just was looking at me from a curled up position with that snake head with the hood.

37:20 And then I stopped and I just kind of mentally bowed to it. And I looked at it and it was felt like, it felt like so much love. It felt like me and the snake were communicating. It was like love. And then my friend, I hear my friend interrupting going, Bill, Bill, what are you doing? Crazy man dancing down. What are you doing? What are you doing? Anyway, we finally left, get back. Just as guys lock in the gate, we pull up and the guy looks at me, the Swami, and he looks at me and says, did you find Babaji's cave? And I said, yeah, let me tell you what happened. So I tell them the whole story, going up, falling down, having a heart attack, having part of an epileptic seizure, getting, I got infected with something like poison oak.

38:05 They got something like that in India and I had bumps all over. And then my shirt was torn and my body was chilled and I was shaken and, and I bruised and dirty and I was so happy. He was cold. And I told him the whole story, including the near death experience. And then I get interrupted by this woman from Alaska that was visiting the ashram. She goes, excuse me, excuse me. And finally I go, what do you want? She goes, don't you know what they say about those that go to Babaji's cave? And I go, okay, I give up. What did they say? She says, those that go to Babaji's cave and have the most arduous journey have the greatest blessing.

38:45 And the Swami smiles at me and I nod. Okay. So now, now let's go with the 20, remember the 29, 59 thing. So now this happened in November of 2004. Well, I go to the doctor when I get back, but I go to the doctor because on my forehead in my spiritual eyes located, when I come back, I had a huge, something growing there turned out to be a cancerous tumor. Huge one that just grew in a couple of months. Boom, I had this, I went to India looking, seeking for spiritual enlightenment and all this good stuff.

39:29 And I come back and I got cancer in the spiritual eye. It was so symbolic. I was just like, wow, that's cool. Let's clean it out. Right? So they cut it open, had surgery, they took it out. I had a bunch of stitches in the forehead, but I never told anybody about my heart problem. I mean, here I have a full blown heart attack and I don't say nothing. So finally at the end of January, I have a couple of events. I collapsed on my garage floor a couple of times. I collapsed on my couch and finally I just go, you know, maybe, maybe I, you know, this tough guy needs to go check on this. So I told my wife, I said, you know, I'm not feeling too good. I'm going to, I'm going to go to Kaiser hospital and just get checked out.

40:10 She said, are you okay? I take, I go, nah, I'm okay. I was having a full blown heart attack. I didn't want to tell her, but I get my truck, you know, my five speed truck, I'm going to the gears. I'm going seven miles down the road. I get to the hospital. I don't know if you ever tried to find a parking place at an ER, there ain't no parking in an ER. You know, you drop somebody off, you go a hundred acres away to find a parking spot. So I did, I come back, I go in the walk-in part of ER. I didn't go in the part where the ambulance goes and they got a line of about 18 people. I line up 20 minutes later, I'm at the front lady hands me a clipboard, says, fill this out and then get in that line.

40:53 I fill it out. I get another line. It's got five, six, seven, eight people. I finally get up there and the nurse goes, she reads the clipboard and she says, she says, you rode here. Did you think you were having a heart attack? And she kind of chuckled. She says, yeah, I'll be the judge of that. She says, how'd you get here? And so I drove myself. And he says, did you park? Yeah, I parked, you know, I told her where and I walked. And you stood that line. Yeah. And you started asking, yeah, yeah, sure. Okay. Well, I'll sit down. And she gets her set. This goes out. She starts listening pretty soon. She goes, my God, you're having a heart attack. I go, that's what I said. No, no, you're really having a heart attack. I said, no, no, that's what I really came in for. And then there's bells and there's blue lights going off. Oh my gosh. Remember Kmart, the blue light special? Anyway, the hospital's got a light that goes off. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, oh my gosh.

41:34 I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, oh my gosh.

42:16 I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, oh my gosh. I said, I said, I said, I said. I don't smoke. I don't smoke. I don't drink. I don't add sugar to anything. I don't do caffeine. I don't do nicotine. You know what? I remember the 2959, right? And he goes, you know, from looking at you and your background and your health record, he says, I would have thought that you'd been dead by 29, let alone almost 59 next week.

43:04 And it stopped me dead in my tracks. I'm going, what? He says, yeah. He says, your generics and your history, you should have been dead at 29. I don't know why, but you survived. He says, had you not done all those things or not done all those things, right? Had you smoked and drank and did all these things, you would have been dead at 29. So then I'm thinking, okay, 59, I'm gonna be 59 in another week or so. So let's, okay, we'll do the surgery, but I want a few days to think about this, right? So let's fast forward now. Now we're gonna go to the third near death experience. This one is complicated and it gets really strange.

43:46 And there's some people out there that I hope they're really open-minded because realize that the near death experiences people have reflect their religion and reflect their beliefs. It reflects how they look at life, their philosophy, everything, I think God really accommodates us very well. Can you explain a little bit what you mean by that? How their NDE expresses their life and their history? Yeah, if you're a Catholic having a near death experience or a Protestant, that's gonna be different than a Muslim or a Buddhist or somebody that's an agnostic or somebody that doesn't believe in God. So you might not see Jesus, you might not see angels, you may see guides, you may see ascended masters, you may see just people from your life, whatever your background, your culture was.

44:39 I think the other side is very accommodating to make us feel comfortable on the other side. Right, and I've heard this before, different people having different kinds of experiences and is based on their background. And I've kind of wondered why. Is the other side, is the spirit world really that different? Is it custom made for each of us? But I like what you just said, it is what we'll be comfortable with. Yeah, it's not frightening. If you believe in hell, you may have a hell experience. You got the near death experience, they went to hell. I don't believe in it. I'll tell you right now, I don't believe in it. There you go.

45:20 So those people believe in it so much and they're so fearful, their fear gave them that experience. Yeah. So, cause I don't believe in hell. But what you believe is really, it sets your GPS of where you go and your experience. Yeah, I don't know if I'll truly understand that until sometime later, but I get the concept. Yeah, it's because whatever you believe, I really believe in accommodating God. And I really believe at that stage to accept things, what may be happening may not be happening as you see, but your mind to accept things, see it in that way as well.

46:03 Right. If I grew up believing heaven looks like a watermelon, then when I die, there's gonna be a watermelon for me. Yeah, yeah. So if seeing Jesus would comfort you, then that's what you're going to get. I really believe that. Okay, I like that. So if you have good thoughts and strong beliefs that's gonna comfort you to know that you're gonna get what you expect. So this experience is maybe that, maybe not that, maybe a double body experience, maybe an out of body experience. Let's throw out labels and just end judgment and hear what happened. Here's what happened. I'll make it brief, the introduction of it, because I went to India and I had a, what they call a knotty leaf, a palm leaf reading, which they read your future and tells you things are gonna happen based on something that was written 2,500 or 5,000 years ago, believe it or not.

47:01 And they find this through your thumbprint. That's another little interview sometimes you wanna do that, that's interesting. But one of the predictions was at a certain age, which I was getting close to be, at a certain age, I was going to take a trip and I was gonna go to this temple, Shiva temple in Southern India. And when I get there, I was supposed to take a trail up the mountain, walk uphill two to four hours. And when I get to the top of this mountain, I'd have an encounter with these Rishis, because all the Rishis, there's 18 or 19 of them or something, all these great holy men would be waiting for me at the top of this mountain.

47:42 And they wouldn't be teaching me anything. They would have me remember what I already knew. And so they have important information on me, but it's information I already had. And I thought it was a crazy, crazy reading. I go, this is crazy. I don't believe this stuff. Anyway, so that's in the back of the mind. So think about maybe that's planted in the back of my mind, I'm just saying. So I have a heart attack in India. I'm giving us some talks and stuff and I have a major heart attack. I have to come home, I leave Mumbai, and I just was in the ER. I get on an airplane, I fly, I get to Denver, Colorado, and I collapse in the customs line.

48:24 I have paramedics with me for six hours. Believe it or not, they let me back on the airplane, fly to Sacramento, which, and then I get a blood clot, right, of course. I can't believe they let me back on the airplane because I said, oh, you gotta let me back in. I'm going to my doctor's. Anyway, so by the time I get to Kaiser to see my heart doctor, as soon as I walk in, he looks at me, gets a wheelchair, he sends me to ER. They sent me to ICU for four days just to get my level of energy up so I could have surgery. I need a quadruple bypass surgery. So normally you have open heart surgery nowadays. It's not as bad as it used to be.

49:04 And usually four days, they kick you out of the hospital and you're home. I mean, after you've just been, I mean, truly, boom, they get you back out again, right? That's modern medicine. So I'm there four days, I haven't even got surgery yet. So I find an ambulance to another hospital to do the surgery. I get there and the guy tells me in the morning, we're going to cut you open and explains what they're going to do. And he says, so I'm going to, he goes, great bedside manner. I'm going to rip your chest open. Exact words, I'm going to rip your chest open. He says, I got these like, they're like pruning chairs, like, you know, you prune a tree. And I'm going to cut those. And I got chest spreader and I'm going to spread it. He's giving me the whole details.

49:45 Like I'm wanting to make sure. I just want to know generally, I'm going to go open your heart. Okay, great. Yeah, Dr. Bedside manner there. More information is not necessarily always a good thing. So then he says, I don't want to cut your arms and your legs. We're going to harvest arteries or veins or whatever they take out of there, right? And then we're going to use those to circumvent the blocked arteries. Cause you got a hundred percent blockage, 90% block. You got blockages everywhere. And I already had like, I think I ended up having eight stents. So I mean, they couldn't do those stents anymore. Yeah. Can I ask you a question at this point?

50:26 When you're hearing about this, you're probably also hearing that at some point, they actually need to stop your heart to do this, right? And bypass everything temporarily. Did you think to let the doctor know, oh, by the way, when that happens to me, certain special things happen, or did you just keep all that to yourself? No, actually when I, when you said, we're going to have to stop your heart and your lungs, and we're going to hook you up to a heart lung machine that will pump oxygenated blood in through the system. So you get oxygen in there, right? And I said, wait a minute, Doc. I said, you're going to stop my heart, my lungs, my lungs ain't working, my heart ain't working. He goes, that's right.

51:06 Well, I said that I'm dead. He says, well, technically, he kind of, he says kind of technically, he says what the machine is giving you life. So I said, so if you have power outage, I'm dead. He goes, well, hopefully we got a backup generator. Hopefully, I like his word. I don't think you had a big smile on your face then, cause you knew. Yeah, I go, okay. So I said, okay, Doc, I'm technically dead. He says, well, yeah, you can look at it, you're dead. We're going to kill you. I'm going to kill you to save you. I said, okay. So the next day I'm laying, I'm laying on this operating metal table. I don't know if you've ever been on an operating table, but they're metal. I mean, it's like chrome metal.

51:46 I was asleep at the time. I don't remember, but I imagine that's easier to clean up. So I'm buck naked and they're laying me on this table. Then they put a sheet on it. Everybody gets cold. I'm cold. And, and, and I'm wide awake. And then the last thing he says, he said, well, I'm going to give you this shot. This should put you out. He says, I want you to count from a hundred down to whatever you get to. And he says, he says, he goes, sometimes he says, sometimes people feel stuff only works for about 95% of the people that they still could feel stuff. That's just as I'm getting ready to pass out. He's telling me that 5% of the people could still kind of feel stuff a little.

52:30 And I'm going, what? I'm out then boom, boom, just like that. Darkness transcends into light, bang. And now I find myself standing in India. I knew it was India. There's all these Indian people around me. And my first thought is I'm standing in this, this patio like area, this, this courtyard with stones. I've thought was, do I have clothes on? Cause I was naked, but I left, right? And I've done, I got clothes on. So this was a modest spiritual journey. So, and then I noticed that people are bumping into me. I feel them and I feel the heat and people are looking at me and they're walking around me or near me.

53:14 They see me. I see them. They see me. I feel them bumping to me. I feel the heat. I feel the ground. It's all real. And I'm going, this can't be. Wasn't an astral body. Wasn't out of body experience. It was a duplicate body experience. It was like, okay, you got my body, one body on the table getting cut up. But here I am in India outside this temple. And I looked at that temple and I saw this Shiva, you know, this bowl out there. I go, this is Shiva temple. And even though I can't read Indian, I knew intuitively, this is the temple I was supposed to, I was told to travel to.

53:55 And I looked around and there was a trail, went up this hill. And I said, I'm supposed to go up that hill, two to four hours. The Rishis are waiting for me. I figured, well, I got nothing else to do. The operation is gonna take six to eight hours. So I started walking and I'm walking up this hill and I'm feeling everything. Once in a while I feel like hands in my stomach and instruments and things like, they're operating that body, but this body's feeling movement. So I finally get up to this top and there's a meadow there with some rocks and logs. And there's these guys sitting there, you know, with the weird hairdos, funny beards and everything.

54:35 And I knew that's the Rishis are waiting for me, right? So I get up there and I sit on a rock and a couple of guys are on rocks, some are on stumps. And there's one extra guy that's there. And it was the guru who was at the ashram I was at when I had this reading done. And the guru's got his arms folded and he goes, beeh! You could give up a heart, or you could skip a few beats, but you don't give up your heart. And he kept saying that to me and I'm going, what's going on, right? Anyway, and so then I'm looking at these Rishis and it's like, I didn't have to ask them any questions, like what's the meaning of life, what's this?

55:20 I was sitting there knowing that everything I ever wanted to ask, I already know. It was like, wow, and I felt great peace and I felt great love and I felt like, I've been with these guys before, this is right, this feels good. And then this guru guy kept saying, you could skip a beat or two, but don't give up your heart. Well, I think he was reading my mind because I went into this surgery as painful as I was going through all this procedure and it was painful. There was a part of me that goes, been to India four times by this time and I've been to the cave and I got my books out and I got all this neat stuff going.

56:07 I felt like I've helped a lot of people. I felt like I kind of did what I was supposed to do. So I wasn't fighting the idea. So then all of a sudden, remember those clouds when I was a kid, they came back again. I got all these clouds, right? And I go, wait a minute, am I gonna have a life review now? No, am I gonna have a preview? Kind of, because what I saw next was the faces of people that I was told would come in the next decade or so. These people would come over time in the future decades. And if I wasn't around, I couldn't help them.

56:47 You know, it might've just been a smile. It might've been preventing a suicide. It might've been cheering somebody up. It might've been teaching somebody something. It might've been giving people love or a hug or whatever it was, but all these people out there, they would miss something in their life if I wasn't there. And I was being shown that for a reason. Then I heard this beautiful feminine voice, beautiful voice go, Bill, you don't owe anybody anything. You've done enough. You finished your task. I promise you peace, no pain, no suffering, just bliss. Come with me, just give up your heart. Then this battle was going back and forth.

57:28 The guru guy goes, yeah, I can skip a few beats. Don't give up heart. They kept going back and forth. I finally asked the guru guy, go why? I go, she's promising me peace and love and joy and no pain and what are you promising me? And he just points to the people. Then he goes, I'm promising you more pain than you've ever had in your life and more suffering than you ever had. And the past you've had pain and you've miraculously taken the pain away, but now you're going to have to learn to deal with pain like regular people. So when you conquer pain and your injuries, your illness, you can teach it to others. I'm going, that's not such a great deal.

58:11 I'm training off bliss for pain, right? So the next thing you know, as this thing goes on for a long period of time, all of a sudden it was like, I'm getting electrocuted. They're just starting my heart. I don't know if they actually use paddles when they jumpstart your heart or if they slap it around or what they do, but it was like paddles. My body's going like electrical charge. It was like boom on this mountain top. And next thing you know, I find myself 100% into my body laying on this table, except now the anesthesia is worn off and my chest cavity is still open and they're still sewing things up and getting ready to wire up the chest.

58:54 And I got a tube down my throat. I got my eyes taped shut. I'm strapped down. I can't talk. I can't move, can't communicate. And I'm in my mind going, hey, I feel everything about some anesthesia. So you're the 5% he was talking about. Yeah, so this thing's going on and I hear him saying, I don't know if he's waking up or not. Well, let's hurry and finish it. He won't feel, he'll be okay. He'll be okay. And I'm going, no, no, I can't even shake my head, right? No, no. So the promise of more pain and suffering started the minute I came back into my body. It was there with a vengeance. And anyway, so I was in the hospital then for another 10 days and I was losing it.

59:38 I had 15 blood transfusions or some big amount. I mean, anyway, they would always give me transfusions. And finally I got a call late at night and it was from India and it was from that guru. And I answered the phone and he goes, he says, you can skip a few beats, but don't give up hard. That was his words, right? I go, what'd you say? That's what I was getting in this vision thing, right? So he said it twice, right? And I go, wow. And then he goes, he says, he said, I just asked about a hundred people here to go up to the temple at the ashram to pray for you because I was going to heal you. You don't want to embarrass me and make me a liar.

1:00:19 Well, I had a sense of humor. That's awesome. So then I don't know if you've got time for it, but one last piece of this that fits right in with that. Go right ahead. It was in that reading that I had that naughty palm reading. They said, one day you're going to be sitting or standing or something and Babaji or Shiva or some great being will get to come and is going to anoint you with oil and water and bless you. Like it's coming out of the sky or something, right? I thought, well, that's a stupid prediction. Well, I'm laying in the hospital bed the day before I leave. I'm looking up and it's like my body, like my bed had a crystal bowl covering it.

1:00:59 It was all energy. It was like there was nothing outside. I couldn't see it. That was like crystal energy. And it was covering my bed. Like everything outside of it was outside the world, but I'm in this comfort zone inside. And I'm looking at the end of my bed and there's Babaji with no shirt on with he's my American dream. So, okay, he has a pair of Levi's on his bare foot. And he's standing at the foot of my bed, which is at least six, seven feet away. And somehow he's pouring oil and water on my forehead and his hand is touching my head and my spiritual eye. And he's chanting and blessing me. And I'm feeling so much love and bliss. I'm thinking, wow, if this is a delusion, it's beautiful.

1:01:42 Let it continue. I figured nobody's ever gonna believe me. I'm never gonna say nothing. So I get home from the hospital a couple of days later, my daughter, my daughter comes over. She says, dad, our old neighbor Dave, he went by to visit you. And I said, no, no, I never saw him. He wasn't there. She says, no, no, he came the day before he left the hospital. I said, no, he didn't come. He said, yes. He said he was there and he went into your room and he got embarrassed because he looked and he had some crazy young Indian guy with no shirt on barefoot and Levi's pouring weird stuff on your head and chanting in some crazy language. And he laughed and he was embarrassed so he left. So there's somebody that didn't believe in any of this and he's telling my daughter exactly what I was having done and she didn't know about either.

1:02:29 I told her. So that was the rest of that experience kind of all tied together. So was that a near death experience? What was it? I don't know, but sometimes things define logic and that whole episode defies logic. Yeah, that's amazing. I have a question for you. Hopefully this will make you think about it. This will make you think for a minute. If you could right now meet that eight-year-old boy that was so sick, what would you say to him? I love you. Yeah, I think that that child needed love and he didn't have it growing up.

1:03:12 He always missing that hug, right? And then being in the hospital by yourself, having visitors, 10, 15 minutes a week is not a lot of visitors. I mean, and nobody came. So I just needed a hug. That little eight-year-old boy needed to know and I did from the divine sense, but there was a part of me just needed to know, you know what? I love you. The older you, loves you. You're all right. You're gonna do okay. Just stay the course. That's great. What about somebody who's never had an experience like this before? What's the bottom line? What can they learn from all that you've just taught us? Death words, they sting. There is no death. Separation between the body is a natural.

1:03:54 Someday we all leave the body behind. It's not who we are. And I know I've had some experiences and some hourly body experiences, it's rain and blood body experiences and all kinds of stuff. And I always come back and say, no, that body was never me, was never me. You know, it may be the clothing I'm wearing for this dream life that I have, but it's never me, never will be me. I'm separate. My eye is my spirit. It's hard for us to understand that in this life. Everything is so physical.

1:04:35 Everything is, there's pain, there's consequences. There's people being mean out there. There's people being horrible out there. Sorry, I'm not trying to be a big downer here, but it's hard to keep our head up to that kind of a thought. How do we do that? If you focus on living, this is gonna sound cliche, because everybody says it, but I don't think they mean it at the depth that I'm really trying to tell people. Truly be in the moment. You can't own the future and in the past, you can't regurgitate it. It's gone, it's finished. The only thing you got is now. Even by me saying that, that's already in the past.

1:05:16 So just focus where you're at and realize that everything you fear in the future, 90% of it ain't gonna happen. And everything that you're moaning and groaning and complaining about that was painful in the past, it's gone. And as soon as you stop remembering it, so is the pain of it. So just focus, like you got surgery tomorrow, I got pain, I got pulled my teeth out. Focus now, right now you don't have anybody pulling your tooth out, enjoy yourself. Only focus on when you need to focus on your pain. Pain's here to teach us a lot. Pain is a lifeguard. It keeps us out of trouble. When you do something physical, then you get pain, you know you should do it.

1:05:56 Mentally, when you get mental pain, because you're doing things, you're cheating on your wife, you're doing this, you're doing crimes, you're doing crimes, you're thinking wrong, you get mental pain, you get spiritual pain. Pain is your lifeguard. Listen to the pain, embrace the pain. And when you're having physical things with your body, look at it as a gift, not as a punishment. I've just went through, they can't see because this is all audio, but you're looking at my face, I've had over 300 stitches in the face in the last 25 months or so. And nose cut off a couple of times, nostril cut off, eyelid cut up, forehead taken off, you know that.

1:06:40 And you look at me and I'm going, hey, it's healed, it comes back, it's just pain. If you come back with positive attitude and a smile on your face, even scars seem to disappear, people don't notice. I don't see them. Literally, I would have had no idea that that had happened. I think for an old geezer, you look really good. You're welcome. But it's like, I'm out now doing what I was supposed to do. I'm giving workshops around the world. Hopefully I'm doing these in India and the UK, but I'm doing these now I'm scheduled for Encinitas, California, Elk Grove, California, Salt Lake City in February, Rochester, New York in April, Raleigh, North Carolina in April as well.

1:07:34 I'll be going to Florida in the summer, Texas. And I'm going out and I'm teaching the art of self-healing, having people have to deal with pain at spiritual, mental and physical levels and actually how to heal their body, mind, spirit. They are the healer, all heal. That's why placebos work. You give a guy a sugar pill and they go, well, placebo cured him. Well, that is something that worked because he believed in it and he believed in himself. Then he had, if you believe in Western medicine, if you believe in your doctor, that's 90% of the battle. But I, through my workshop, are teaching people to love themselves, to believe in themselves, stop looking for a lifeguard outside yourself.

1:08:19 The guru, the teachers within, the healers within, learn to tap into that, be in charge of your own life. But you can moderate and control and eliminate your pain at spiritual, physical and mental levels. And that's what I'm teaching. And you mentioned UK, we have a lot of listeners in the UK. So we'll have something in the show notes so they can find you. Okay, Reverend Bill, thank you so much for your time today. Well, thank you. And if they want to know more, I got several books out, but, Warrior, A Spiritual Odyssey is my autobiography. That is on Amazon as is the follow-up book to that kind of like a supplement, what happened after that book, Alchemy of a Warrior's Heart, which takes trips to India and my third near-death experience and second one.

1:09:09 So I thank you for allowing me to be on your show. And I hope this talk inspires somebody. That's all I ask for. You don't have to believe anything I say. In fact, being a skeptic is healthy. But look in your own heart. Reverend Bill is just telling you that the only thing in life that is real is love. He's skeptical at everything else. Amen, good ending. Thank you again. If you have had a round trip death experience, we would love to hear about it. Send an email to eric at roundtripdeath.com. And lastly, if you have found this program uplifting, if it's given you just a little more hope in the future, share it with a friend, hit that follow button and take a few seconds to write us a review.

1:09:56 Until next time, I wish you everything good that you're looking for in this life and the next. I'll see you next time.