"Please Don't Send Me Back" - David's 2 NDE's

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In this episode, imagine a pastor, now hospital

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chaplain, dealing with cancer four times and

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having multiple near -death experiences. What

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would he experience in his NDEs and what advice

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does he have for other clergy? What can we learn

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from these experiences and how can a belief in

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the afterlife provide hope for your life right

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now? It's time for Round Trip Death. I'd like

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to welcome our very special guest today, David

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McGinley, coming to us from, oh man, long ways

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away, but I'm going to let you talk about that,

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David. How are you today? I'm doing really well.

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Great to see you. It's great to see you. Tell

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everybody where you live and what you do. So

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I'm in Halifax, Nova Scotia. So eastern seaboard

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and then some out into the ocean. And it's a

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cold winter's night here. I am what's called

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a psychospiritual specialist. So if you can imagine

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sort of a psychologist who has deep awareness

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of the spiritual dimensions or the existential

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dimensions of identity and consciousness and

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of reality itself, that's what I do. And I support

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people facing the crises that life will inevitably

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bring. I worked for 25 years in the hospital.

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I was a chaplain in palliative and cancer and

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intensive care. I have supported thousands of

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people on the edge of immortality and just learned

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and grown so much from everything they've taught

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me. And now I have this private practice and

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I'm an author and I produce some online content

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and I like to relax with my cat in the sunshine

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and have a nice cup of coffee in the morning

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and walk in this beautiful city, drink in the

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sea air and the sunshine. Even on a cold day,

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it's a beautiful thing. I remember, don't you

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have some pastoral duties as well? Well, I did.

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I had a church for 10 years, a Maluthrin pastor.

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Then I had a parish in a little fishing village

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called Lunenberg, Nova Scotia, and I was there

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for about a year, and really enjoyed. It's the

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oldest Lutheran congregation in Canada, and beautiful

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people. That's fantastic. And speaking of that,

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it wasn't until I saw you face to face today,

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because the other day we just spoke on the phone,

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face to face I figured out where I remembered

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you from. And correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't

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you on a panel discussion at Ions in Phoenix?

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Yes, I've been a member of the International

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Association for Near Death Studies, and I was

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on a clergy panel in Phoenix, and we were talking

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about how, ironically, clergy, who should be

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experts in near -death experiences and the nature

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of the afterlife, are very unfamiliar with the

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prevalence of the phenomena. One of the things

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I like to do is conduct workshops for clergy

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and raise awareness of how very real the hope

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is that we proclaim every Sunday, but how broad

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it is, far beyond the box of any one faith tradition.

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Well, I was in the audience that day. And if

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I remember right, you were hilarious. Now, you

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seem very calm and mild -mannered here, just

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the two of us, but in front of hundreds of people,

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you were pretty funny. Well, you know, the adrenaline

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gets going. Right? I vividly remember that presentation.

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I had a lot of fun at that. There's a lot that

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we can laugh at about ourselves, both as individuals

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and as clergy and as church. And that was a delightful

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experience. I'm glad you also laughed along with

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us. Well, I wish I could say I remembered a lot

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of the things that came out of your mouth. My

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memory isn't that good, but That makes two of

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us. But I do remember laughing and it being a

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really good panel discussion that day. And I

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love having clergy on from time to time and getting

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a perspective from different viewpoints. And

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also, and we'll do this a little bit later after

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we hear about your near -death experiences, but

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also getting a perspective that you can share

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to help other clergy who may be listening. A

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lot of them need help. No offense to people out

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there, but Like you said, it's something that

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a lot of clergy are really behind on and don't

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know that much about. I had an opportunity to

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be on a podcast a little while ago for, I think

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it was called the Planters podcast. So it was

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all about people planting these individual churches

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all over. And it was fascinating speaking with

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them and got a lot of good feedback there. But

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anyway, Enough of me talking. I want to jump

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into... I'm just looking at my notes here. You're

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a cancer survivor, which also led to some amazing

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experiences. Why don't you jump into that story?

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Yeah, yeah. As a chaplain, I know cancer from

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both sides of the bed. I've had cancer four times,

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so I'm really lucky to be alive. And it's not

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a kind of cancer that most people have. You know,

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cancer... We think of it as this vicious disease

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that spreads out or metastasizes and compromises

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the different organs in your metabolism. My cancer

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is called perangaloma. This is sort of a gelatinous

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tumor that grows. 90 % of them grow on the adrenal

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gland and they're called pheochromocytoma. And

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when they're elsewhere in their body, they're

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called perangalomas. Mine I had when I was 17,

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then 27, then 35, then 37. So this tumor makes

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a Molotov cocktail of chemicals, dopamine, norepinephrine,

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adrenaline, components of adrenaline, something

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called catecholamines. And these are very concentrated,

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so when your adrenal gland turns on, it triggers

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the tumor to explode. Most people die in about

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a minute. Smaller explosions feel like you got

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hit in the gut, your heart is racing, you're

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sweating, and you collapse. I have collapsed.

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I don't know how many times because of the tumors.

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Now the first one was in my bladder. So I was

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lucky. The metabolites flushed out in my urine.

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I didn't feel the anxiety and the... the fight

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-or -flight response from these massive levels

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of dopamine and other metabolites. The second

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one, 10 years later, was on my femoral artery.

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That's not good. When the tumor blows, remember

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it's because your adrenal gland released some

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adrenaline. Now, what's the most anxiety -provoking

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things that you could possibly do? Public speaking.

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Well, I was a student minister getting into the

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pulpit every Sunday. That wasn't a good combination.

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A lot of times I thought that I couldn't be a

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pastor, I couldn't do the job because I kept

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having these what felt like anxiety attacks.

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And then one day I was doing a hospital chapel

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service and the tumor blew and I went down. Now

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a hospital chapel, that's a good place to die.

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You got medical, you got spiritual, right? And

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that's where I had my near -death experience.

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I tell you, life -changing. Now, these tumors,

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you can't hit them with chemo or radiation because

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they grow so slowly and they have very thick

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cell walls, so they're resilient. You've got

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to go in there surgically and extract them, but

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then the surgical team are acting like a bomb

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squad. As soon as you manipulate the tumor, it's

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going to blow. So a lot of people die on the

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table. They have to lower your blood pressure

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to about 50 over 30 and hold it there through

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the operation. That's barely enough to keep your

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blood vessels puffed up, you know, when not that

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they're going to collapse. But then they hit

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the tumor and they pull it out and it releases

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chemicals. Your blood pressure skyrockets and

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that's giving you more headroom. because they

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kept it so low. And then they give you other

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medications to bring that down again. It's sort

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of a roller coaster for a few minutes. And if

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you survive, okay, it's good. It just sounds

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terrifying knowing that you have these time bombs

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inside yourself. Yeah, because even intense emotion

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is dangerous, right? Excitement, joy, anger,

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anything that gets the adrenaline really going

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to feel can be fatal. when you have a periganglioma.

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So I'm very lucky to be alive and I credit that

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to my doctors and of course to God and the angels

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and the unseen accompanied guardians and guides

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and I must have been sent back for a reason and

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I now 30 years later have an idea of what that

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reason was. Tell us later. Let's say that. Yeah,

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keep us in suspense. I'm going to make a note

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here so I don't forget to ask you about that.

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But let's get into the near -death experience

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itself. What happened? Yeah, so I didn't have

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the tunnel and I didn't see my body from above.

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That's common, but not in the majority of cases.

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I was suddenly on a grassy hill. I passed out

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just at the beginning of my sermon. I crashed

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and I hit the floor, but I'm gone. and I'm on

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this grassy hill. One of the things that strikes

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me is that it was marked by such an utter sense

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of relaxation and a sense of being home. You

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hear that a lot from near -death experiencers.

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Absolutely. It's one of the very common things.

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And I think, personally, that that refers to

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an existential integration. In my near -death

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experience, there wasn't any aspect of myself

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that I was suppressing. There wasn't a subconscious,

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there wasn't an ego. I didn't have a fractured

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framework of identity. It was integrated. So,

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yeah, you're at home in yourself because now

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you know and you are yourself as you essentially

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are. Not the story we tell ourselves about ourselves,

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which is the ego. and not the critical voice,

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not any sense of limitation. There are no words

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for how utterly complete you realize that you

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are. Can I ask a question right there? Not to

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second -guess anything you're saying whatsoever,

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but some people tell me that feeling of home

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is more like, this is where I came from. Okay,

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like a heavenly place they came from, now they're

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back there. You described it very differently.

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I supplement what they said with my perspective,

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because I also felt utterly familiar with the

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place. I knew it. And when I was there, I was

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jumping up and down like a kid at Christmas,

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overjoyed, saying, I'm home, I'm home, I'm home.

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Right? It's like I knew I had come back. to the

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place I belong. It's home. It's the inner and

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the outer, and there is no difference between

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the two. And I felt completely connected to everything,

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every blade of grass on that hill. And there

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was a tree at the top of the hill. There are

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no other trees. And I felt fully connected to

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that tree. And I could sense how that tree was...

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pulling in the nutrients from the soil and the

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energy from the air. And I thought one with the

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air and the sky. But with it was this complete

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sense of final excitement and relaxation into

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such authenticity that I had never experienced

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before on Earth or in this form. Oh, every time

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I talk about it, I feel homesick. Give me more

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detail. You were jumping up and down. Jumping

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up and down. There was someone there. There was

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a celestial entity. It was masculine. He felt

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like my best friend. I felt like I had known

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him all of my life. It was great. And he simply

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said, it's great to see you, David. And I said,

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it's so great to be here. Come on, let's run

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to the tree. I'm like a kid with his best friend.

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And he said, no, you can't go up there. That's

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common, right? In near -death experiences, there's

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often a boundary or point at which you can't

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go beyond. I knew if I got to that tree, I'd

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never come back here. I was pulled to that tree.

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But he said, let's talk. Things are going really

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well, David. And we had this conversation that

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felt so casual, so relaxed, so intimate. And

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yet I also could sense from him that this was

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an entity of absolute love and compassion, but

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also authority and insight and wisdom. I was

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humbled in his presence and I was as relaxed

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as I would be with a childhood friend. We talked

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about my life and Well, I can't remember all

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the details of that conversation. It's basically,

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things are going really well. You're where you

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should be. You have a lot more work to do. You

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can't stay here. It's really important that you

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go back. And we're walking on the hill in the

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grass. And I said, that's ridiculous. Why would

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I go back? I'm finally here. I'm home. That this

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is everything I've longed for. Come on, let's

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go to the tree. There was a power in his presence.

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I felt the significance of what he was saying.

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You have more work to do. Look back now, and

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I think that work is related, of course, to the

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relationships and the conversations I would have,

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because we're all here walking each other home.

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We're all here to help each other wake up to

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what we essentially and fundamentally are. But

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I also knew that it meant I had a lot of maturing

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to do. I had a lot of growing up to do. I was

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young. I was 27. I still didn't know how to love

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really well and live really well. He said, you

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need to go back, but we will be with you. Plural.

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That was interesting. When I realized that I

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wasn't going to be able to stay there, I said,

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Please, you can't send me back. I just want to

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say, don't send me back to that. Because this

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feels very fractured. This feels awkward and

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clumsy and dense and inefficient, this state

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of existence compared to that. This is like a

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two -dimensional cardboard cutout. I was more

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alive there. That's something that stuck with

00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:37.279
me as I supported hundreds and Hundreds, I've

00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:39.500
been at the bedside of so many as they've died.

00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:44.120
And I know for them, it'll be waking up. And

00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.980
the gravity of grief will be left with here,

00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:51.580
with us. So part of me is a little bit envious.

00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:55.500
And sometimes I say in my closing prayer for

00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:58.379
them, you know, thank you for the gift of your

00:16:58.379 --> 00:17:00.600
life and your love, and pray that you release

00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.759
your body without... You know, release your body

00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.720
with gratitude, release your life without regret,

00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:09.859
and go on the wings of wonder to what's awaiting

00:17:09.859 --> 00:17:14.099
you, and we'll see you on the other side. You

00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:16.839
know, watch over your family if you can. Don't

00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:21.200
freak them out. Behave yourself. Behave yourself.

00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.099
Is that something that you believe that they

00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:27.700
can do? Sort of like the ghosts, you know, the

00:17:27.700 --> 00:17:30.640
scary ghosts we think of? Is that a thing? Well,

00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:35.039
I tend to think the ghosts are a complex remnant

00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.400
of consciousness amplified by our own consciousness.

00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:42.099
I think there are different forms of spirit.

00:17:42.579 --> 00:17:44.539
I think the afterlife is a lot more complicated

00:17:44.539 --> 00:17:47.960
than we realize. This episode of Round Trip Death

00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.299
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It's easy and today It's free. And with the billions

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of life forms here on earth, why would there

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not be even more after the physical form drops

00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:19.599
away? So I think it's a rich and amazing universe.

00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:22.880
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I've got to

00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.319
ask you, this entity that was with you and that

00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:30.200
you were conversing with, do you have any feeling

00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:35.099
for who that was? I have wondered if it was Jesus.

00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:41.539
It certainly would be him in his compassion and

00:19:41.539 --> 00:19:47.180
love and presence, but it could equally have

00:19:47.180 --> 00:19:51.720
been an angel with that same characteristic of

00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:56.640
consciousness. I do feel that I had known him

00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.400
and he had known me from the beginning, so maybe

00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:05.039
a guardian angel. I still talk to him or them.

00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:08.880
you know, throughout my incarnate form, my journey

00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.920
here. I've often asked them for help in my work

00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.599
at the hospital with the dying. Because, you

00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:18.299
know, to be honest, just because you have a near

00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:20.500
-death experience, it doesn't upgrade all aspects

00:20:20.500 --> 00:20:23.640
of your ego or your consciousness. I am still

00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.500
human and in many ways as ridiculous as ever.

00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:30.220
So, if left to my own devices, I'm probably going

00:20:30.220 --> 00:20:33.690
to mess things up. Always asking for help. Well,

00:20:33.690 --> 00:20:36.089
especially when you're doing something that important

00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:42.390
like helping someone on their deathbed Wow Yeah,

00:20:42.390 --> 00:20:44.349
we would need help because how do you know what

00:20:44.349 --> 00:20:48.230
to say? And that was a beautiful thing that you

00:20:48.230 --> 00:20:51.089
told us a few minutes ago But you know, maybe

00:20:51.089 --> 00:20:56.170
they need specific advice or I don't know I Wouldn't

00:20:56.170 --> 00:21:00.119
know what to say well I stop worrying about what

00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:02.819
to say, and I focus more on the quality of my

00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:05.920
presence. Don't worry about the words that will

00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:09.180
come out of your mouth. The Bible talks about

00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:11.500
Jesus is reassuring his disciples, don't worry

00:21:11.500 --> 00:21:14.200
about what you're going to say. Relax. Why do

00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.200
you worry about anything? Be open. Be open so

00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.259
that spirit can flow through. Get out of your

00:21:20.259 --> 00:21:24.339
own way. I'm still working on that homework.

00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.309
It takes a certain kind of faith to just Sit

00:21:28.309 --> 00:21:31.289
back and and wait for that kind of inspiration

00:21:31.289 --> 00:21:35.049
to come You also mentioned the term we and I

00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:38.089
know you've thought about this a lot, too So

00:21:38.089 --> 00:21:41.269
any idea of who the we was that one being you

00:21:41.269 --> 00:21:45.049
were with and who else? Yeah, I think that I

00:21:45.049 --> 00:21:48.289
think every one of us has a team on the other

00:21:48.289 --> 00:21:53.809
side Not a single angel or entity. I think Some

00:21:53.809 --> 00:21:57.069
of us need a bigger support team or committee

00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:01.400
Because we're a harder work in progress. Yeah.

00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:07.759
The nature of consciousness itself is that there

00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.759
is no such thing in the end as an individual

00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:13.920
consciousness. It's all a collective form of

00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:18.039
one consciousness. Because, well, we're getting

00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.539
into some theology here. If God is, and God is

00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:26.200
infinite, indivisible, ultimate consciousness

00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:29.980
from which reality emanates, which Saint Paul

00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:33.839
talks about in Corinthians. That means that there

00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:38.920
can be no separate objects or entities in the

00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:42.420
universe. All of them are emanations from the

00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:46.680
one consciousness. And by that, every moment

00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:50.660
of our existence is dependent upon this reality

00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:56.339
of non -dual consciousness. So, Here I am, a

00:22:56.339 --> 00:23:01.119
temporary form that, even after I die, will continue

00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:05.740
in its own perceived unique individuation so

00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:09.660
that it may participate in the mosaic of creative

00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:13.759
enterprises of the divine. But ultimately it's

00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.500
only one. I think of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane

00:23:17.500 --> 00:23:19.740
praying, may they be one as you and I are one,

00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:23.240
you and me us and them. I think there's a mystical

00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.799
foundation of the ground of being underneath

00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:31.039
all of this. It's quite perplexing, wondrous,

00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:34.140
and the poverty of my words is really not going

00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:39.900
to be adequate to explore it. And so many experiencers,

00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:43.640
as you know, talk about that feeling of oneness.

00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:47.059
And I often ask them to explain it and it's very

00:23:47.059 --> 00:23:49.900
difficult to explain. Most people just can't.

00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:53.259
They're just like, I just felt one with you and

00:23:53.259 --> 00:23:56.839
me and the universe and God and everything, that

00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.700
we're all connected in some way. Okay, I want

00:24:00.700 --> 00:24:03.220
to get back. Was there more to your experience

00:24:03.220 --> 00:24:06.740
than this and how did it end? I pleaded once

00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:12.559
again to not be sent back and he turned to me

00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:16.079
with an even deeper gravity of presence, and

00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:18.339
he put his hand on my shoulder, and this love

00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:23.160
and compassion poured into me, complete understanding.

00:24:23.380 --> 00:24:27.279
And he just said, don't worry, we'll be with

00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:31.140
you, we'll see you, we'll see you later. And

00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:34.519
boom, I was back. So that's the hardest part.

00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:37.980
Yeah, I've heard it explained many ways. Some

00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:41.890
people say it feels like being slammed. back

00:24:41.890 --> 00:24:45.650
in this body, they don't fit into... How did

00:24:45.650 --> 00:24:47.890
you feel? What was it like or do you remember?

00:24:48.690 --> 00:24:51.549
Oh, I felt my consciousness being compressed.

00:24:52.210 --> 00:24:57.569
Yeah. I felt the density of this level of reality

00:24:57.569 --> 00:25:01.529
compared to that. I felt the utter inadequacy

00:25:01.529 --> 00:25:04.589
of my thoughts, which must progress one after

00:25:04.589 --> 00:25:09.309
the other as my words do, and how utterly inadequate

00:25:09.309 --> 00:25:13.900
they are. to express the deep nature of what

00:25:13.900 --> 00:25:18.019
is fundamentally real. Everything becomes distorted,

00:25:18.819 --> 00:25:21.319
right, through perception and time and space

00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:25.740
and body and cognition and language and flesh

00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:30.640
and bone. And what I had become, as well as what

00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:35.019
I had experienced, receded from me, just descended,

00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:37.869
like I dropped it into a... the depths of the

00:25:37.869 --> 00:25:40.190
ocean and I'm watching it disappear down into

00:25:40.190 --> 00:25:43.789
the dark. There was no way I could keep it at

00:25:43.789 --> 00:25:47.309
the level of my egoic functioning and my perceived

00:25:47.309 --> 00:25:51.089
separate identity. It just sank down and I felt

00:25:51.089 --> 00:25:54.230
myself reaching out and grasping for it and it

00:25:54.230 --> 00:26:00.930
was gone. And it left me simply feeling homesick

00:26:00.930 --> 00:26:04.369
and embarrassed that I had passed out and scared

00:26:04.369 --> 00:26:07.789
everyone. Again, right? Because I had passed

00:26:07.789 --> 00:26:11.029
out before. The doctors and the nurses, they

00:26:11.029 --> 00:26:13.329
took my vitals. They couldn't find anything wrong.

00:26:13.430 --> 00:26:16.109
They gave me some orange juice. And every time

00:26:16.109 --> 00:26:20.029
I tell this story, you know, I feel it. I went

00:26:20.029 --> 00:26:23.390
home. I didn't tell my congregation. I didn't

00:26:23.390 --> 00:26:27.410
tell anyone. Because this was over 30 years ago.

00:26:27.509 --> 00:26:29.390
I didn't know about near -death experiences.

00:26:30.170 --> 00:26:32.569
So what do you do when your consciousness...

00:26:32.859 --> 00:26:35.119
moves from this state, and then you're expanded

00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:38.579
into one so full and connected, and then you're

00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:40.920
compressed back into this. You crawl into bed

00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:45.019
and you grieve. You don't know why. And you shove

00:26:45.019 --> 00:26:49.039
it down, and it took me years to integrate it.

00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:51.680
And then when I started hearing about others

00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:56.779
who've had them, the memory and the feeling surfaced.

00:26:56.859 --> 00:26:59.339
As much as you're trying to dismiss it as a dream

00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:04.970
or a hallucination, or a distortion, you can't

00:27:04.970 --> 00:27:08.170
shake it. It's unlike any dream or memory you've

00:27:08.170 --> 00:27:12.589
ever had. It has its hold on you. You are apprehended

00:27:12.589 --> 00:27:16.309
and it won't let you go. And this homesickness,

00:27:16.509 --> 00:27:20.809
this love, this complete and utter, inexplainable

00:27:20.809 --> 00:27:26.630
knowing of God and Spirit and continued existence,

00:27:27.490 --> 00:27:31.900
it's wonderful and it's lonely. I love that term,

00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:35.680
homesickness. Yeah, if it felt so much like home,

00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:39.180
you miss it. That's the grieving that you're

00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:42.920
talking about. Totally makes sense. And yet I

00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:46.640
know that I'm here for a reason. Let's jump to

00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:49.059
that. You mentioned that earlier. You learned

00:27:49.059 --> 00:27:50.799
about your mission in life. What are you here

00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:54.559
for? I'm here to shine, in my own particular

00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:57.619
way, and help others to do that too. Love is

00:27:57.619 --> 00:27:59.880
your spiritual practice, because God is love.

00:28:00.460 --> 00:28:02.900
And that means love isn't an emotion. Love is

00:28:02.900 --> 00:28:04.819
the highest state of consciousness, completely

00:28:04.819 --> 00:28:07.900
integrated and connected. That's why whatever

00:28:07.900 --> 00:28:10.200
you do to the least of these, you do to Him.

00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.640
So how I do that, or how I was led to do that,

00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.380
was not something quite of my planning. It came

00:28:17.380 --> 00:28:21.759
upon me. You know, I went back to my seminary

00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:24.859
after my internship. I finished my degree. I

00:28:24.859 --> 00:28:29.549
was placed in a church. On the first day in my

00:28:29.549 --> 00:28:32.269
new parish, a man died, and there I was sitting

00:28:32.269 --> 00:28:36.190
at his side, feeling oddly comfortable. I didn't

00:28:36.190 --> 00:28:39.509
know that was a prelude or a forewarning of what

00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:42.130
I would become. I had a church for ten years,

00:28:42.230 --> 00:28:45.250
bumbling along, not very good at church administration,

00:28:45.369 --> 00:28:48.369
but loving to be with the people and share the

00:28:48.369 --> 00:28:51.650
stories. Then an opportunity came up for hospital

00:28:51.650 --> 00:28:54.910
chaplaincy, and I just felt compelled, and I

00:28:54.910 --> 00:28:59.430
jumped for it. 25 years later, it's been the

00:28:59.430 --> 00:29:02.269
richest vocation I could ever have imagined.

00:29:03.009 --> 00:29:05.329
But how do you go through helping people that

00:29:05.329 --> 00:29:09.210
are on their deathbed and not come away just,

00:29:09.210 --> 00:29:12.269
oh, wow, just depressed every day after doing

00:29:12.269 --> 00:29:15.930
that? Well, there's a tension at play because

00:29:15.930 --> 00:29:19.890
it's what I call emotional cholesterol. It builds

00:29:19.890 --> 00:29:23.170
when you are continually exposed to suffering.

00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:26.220
without relief between the cases. There's no

00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:29.700
way to process it between the cases. So yes,

00:29:29.700 --> 00:29:33.539
eventually that destabilizes your ability to

00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:37.140
function, literally. I went on sabbatical for

00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:40.180
a year because I'd written a book and there's

00:29:40.180 --> 00:29:42.839
the book, Beyond Surviving. And this talks about

00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:45.740
my four rounds with cancer and patient stories

00:29:45.740 --> 00:29:49.900
of cancer and how to engage the crisis to deepen

00:29:49.900 --> 00:29:54.000
your love and connect to that spiritual foundation.

00:29:54.619 --> 00:29:56.400
We'll put a link to that in the show notes if

00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.119
people want to find it. You have another book

00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:00.660
too. Go ahead and mention it now. And the other

00:30:00.660 --> 00:30:03.099
book is, I think it shows up backwards on your

00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:07.339
thing, but Early Exits. Yeah. So this is a lot

00:30:07.339 --> 00:30:10.220
thicker. This one is pretty heavy. It's about

00:30:10.220 --> 00:30:14.000
euthanasia, which is legal in Canada. And when

00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:16.880
that was brought in 10 years ago, it fundamentally

00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.000
changed the nature of palliative care and the

00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:22.480
nature of my work. And while on one level, Many

00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.059
people said it's a kind and compassionate thing

00:30:25.059 --> 00:30:27.900
to do when people are facing unbearable suffering.

00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:31.660
On another level, I found it utterly an impoverished

00:30:31.660 --> 00:30:34.799
response to suffering. The efficient management

00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.980
of death through a simple injection. It turns

00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:40.759
out that the vast majority of people are requesting

00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:43.759
it because of spiritual suffering or existential

00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:47.680
distress, not because of physical pain. Yes,

00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:52.200
there are. those who have terrible physical suffering,

00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.619
but that can be managed through proper medication,

00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:59.819
which may require palliative sedation. A lot

00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:01.619
of people are scared of that. They don't want

00:31:01.619 --> 00:31:03.380
to be floating in limbo, or they don't want to

00:31:03.380 --> 00:31:05.980
put their family through that. People are unaware

00:31:05.980 --> 00:31:09.160
of the architecture, how the architecture of

00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:12.319
consciousness and identity is deconstructed through

00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:16.079
that period of dying, and how this is an opening

00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:21.700
to your Your spiritual identities, near -and

00:31:21.700 --> 00:31:23.960
-death awareness, mystical states of consciousness

00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:26.359
near the end of life, are incredibly common.

00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:30.180
But with euthanasia, we turn you off before you

00:31:30.180 --> 00:31:33.559
reach that stage. And I'm even bold to say I

00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:36.640
feel it's a medical procedure being used to treat

00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:38.779
what is predominantly a spiritual condition.

00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:42.900
So you're against euthanasia. Yeah. Oh yeah.

00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:46.839
I think that the appropriate response is proper

00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:49.640
pain management. deep compassion, the community

00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:53.980
to rally, and for that process of telling your

00:31:53.980 --> 00:31:57.859
story, expressing your fear, putting what terrifies

00:31:57.859 --> 00:32:02.079
you out in front with a professional, with someone

00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:06.819
who's able to help you unpack that. And talking

00:32:06.819 --> 00:32:09.240
about near -death experiences is part of it,

00:32:09.339 --> 00:32:12.880
because these are also so common. One in ten

00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:14.559
who have a brush with death will have a near

00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:17.519
-death experience. One in five. who have a cardiac

00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:21.380
event, will have a near -death experience. Independent

00:32:21.380 --> 00:32:25.559
of belief, culture, age, education, it's the

00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:28.839
greatest gift that lies hidden in palliative

00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:31.779
care. It's exciting to share this with doctors

00:32:31.779 --> 00:32:35.119
and nurses. I presented a grand rounds at the

00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:38.000
hospital on near -death experiences. It turned

00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.839
out to be the highest attended and the highest

00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:44.359
rated grand rounds they've ever had. People want

00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:48.559
to know. Anyway, What does working with the dying

00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:52.619
do to you? It deepens your humanity. It clarifies

00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:54.839
your principles. It amplifies the gift of an

00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:58.819
ordinary day. And when you take care of yourself,

00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:03.960
exercise, healthy eating, watch your bad habits,

00:33:04.579 --> 00:33:08.200
get plenty of sunshine, meditate, contemplate,

00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:13.220
connect, then it quiets the noise down. It certainly

00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:16.500
changes... your perspective on the insanity of

00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:20.819
our world. It calibrates you to compassion. Which

00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:25.000
brings peace. You seem to be someone at peace.

00:33:25.339 --> 00:33:28.420
And doing this kind of service, I can see why.

00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:32.400
Yeah, I'm not consistent with it. We're human,

00:33:32.859 --> 00:33:37.880
okay. And still very much a clown. But that's

00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:40.319
okay. My wife says my ridiculousness is part

00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:43.609
of the charm, so... Let's hope she's honest about

00:33:43.609 --> 00:33:47.390
that. Let's hope that attitude never changes.

00:33:47.789 --> 00:33:50.390
All right, let's shift gears and talk about advice

00:33:50.390 --> 00:33:53.569
to other clergy for a minute. Where would you

00:33:53.569 --> 00:33:57.769
even start? First, let me just say that they're

00:33:57.769 --> 00:34:02.430
hungry for it. The appetite for hope is immense

00:34:02.430 --> 00:34:05.690
among the clergy, because the hope we proclaim

00:34:05.690 --> 00:34:08.670
of the resurrection still predominantly tends

00:34:08.670 --> 00:34:12.179
to be abstract. until you talk to someone who's

00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:14.980
experienced, right, touch their doorstep on the

00:34:14.980 --> 00:34:17.699
other side. There's so many who've been temporarily

00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:20.679
transformed. It is utterly staggering. So I bet

00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:24.179
if you're in a church, there are many in your

00:34:24.179 --> 00:34:26.019
congregation who've had these, but they don't

00:34:26.019 --> 00:34:29.019
talk about it because the church often criticizes,

00:34:29.219 --> 00:34:32.019
people have been rejected, people have been dismissed,

00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.940
because the leaders didn't know how to integrate

00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:38.670
it. They weren't aware of it. I did a presentation

00:34:38.670 --> 00:34:43.050
to our Lutheran clergy in Eastern Canada and

00:34:43.050 --> 00:34:47.170
all of Ontario. There was a lot there, and the

00:34:47.170 --> 00:34:49.590
bishops were there, and the Anglican bishop was

00:34:49.590 --> 00:34:53.230
there, and they were enthusiastic and excited.

00:34:53.789 --> 00:34:55.849
I renewed, for some of them, renewed their hope.

00:34:56.349 --> 00:34:58.929
But let's acknowledge the theological tensions.

00:34:59.750 --> 00:35:04.070
It challenges any exclusive claims that a church

00:35:04.070 --> 00:35:08.769
might have upon Jesus. as the only way to God,

00:35:09.090 --> 00:35:11.429
because near -death experiences are universal.

00:35:12.150 --> 00:35:15.150
So that's going to threaten some theological

00:35:15.150 --> 00:35:18.750
constructs and doctrine. But it actually doesn't

00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:22.550
compromise the centrality of Jesus in our salvation

00:35:22.550 --> 00:35:25.590
story. It can change the meaning of the word

00:35:25.590 --> 00:35:28.309
salvation, which actually means wholeness and

00:35:28.309 --> 00:35:31.449
to be complete. It doesn't actually mean life

00:35:31.449 --> 00:35:35.550
after death. And it shifts the focus of the Church's

00:35:35.550 --> 00:35:38.670
work from getting you to heaven, if you say this

00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:42.409
certain prayer, to now bring the Kingdom of God

00:35:42.409 --> 00:35:45.429
here to earth. That's what it's really about,

00:35:45.829 --> 00:35:48.309
in how we treat and relate to each other. It's

00:35:48.309 --> 00:35:52.349
a very incarnate faith. I would encourage clergy

00:35:52.349 --> 00:35:55.309
to go to the International Association for Near

00:35:55.309 --> 00:35:59.389
Death Studies website, and they have online discussion

00:35:59.389 --> 00:36:02.820
groups. There's one for interfaith clergy, there's

00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:05.880
one for Christian clergy, and it's a little advertisement.

00:36:06.139 --> 00:36:09.280
I am the guy who facilitates that. I think there's

00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.059
a Jewish one, too, if I remember right. Yeah.

00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:14.480
Yeah, there's a Jewish one. Think of it this

00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:17.619
way. If God is love, then again, love is your

00:36:17.619 --> 00:36:21.599
spiritual practice. And whatever belief system

00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:25.619
and doctrine you hold, even if it's pretty loctite

00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:30.829
and sound, it's going to fall far short. of the

00:36:30.829 --> 00:36:33.269
mystery and wonder of reality that's out there.

00:36:33.929 --> 00:36:36.670
Because the poverty of our understanding just

00:36:36.670 --> 00:36:42.969
cannot impart this realm. Only love can do so.

00:36:43.389 --> 00:36:45.510
Getting back to what you mentioned a minute ago,

00:36:45.869 --> 00:36:49.389
I don't find near -death experiences in any way

00:36:49.389 --> 00:36:54.230
contrary to basic Christian doctrine from the

00:36:54.230 --> 00:36:57.650
Bible. That's me personally. We also need to

00:36:57.650 --> 00:37:00.360
remember one thing. When we're listening to these

00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:04.440
experiences and that is. That people are getting

00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:10.199
a very small glimpse of something okay in in

00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:15.360
my opinion there on just the front step of the

00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:18.880
porch of heaven or spirit world or whatever we

00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:21.960
want to call it and they're getting a small glimpse

00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:24.940
they're coming back there explaining it to us

00:37:24.940 --> 00:37:28.679
in terms that they understand. which may use

00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:31.579
some terms that we may or may not believe in.

00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:34.920
Some people have a hard time hearing about reincarnation

00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.860
because that doesn't seem to fit with doctrine,

00:37:38.539 --> 00:37:41.219
but people also don't know how to explain it

00:37:41.219 --> 00:37:46.300
any other way. witnessed. And they're not seeing

00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:49.980
the entirety of the plan. They're not seeing

00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:54.099
the entirety of heaven and God's work and all

00:37:54.099 --> 00:37:56.960
of that. And that's not to discount their experiences

00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:01.460
at all, but let's take them for what they are.

00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:05.219
And because they're a little glimpse, I think

00:38:05.219 --> 00:38:08.260
that's why sometimes people think they're contrary

00:38:08.260 --> 00:38:12.710
and they're not. Let's remember that we are inherently

00:38:12.710 --> 00:38:16.550
limited to our vocabulary, our cognitive framework,

00:38:17.650 --> 00:38:21.710
the theological or existential story that we've

00:38:21.710 --> 00:38:23.949
inherited. So when we come back, we're going

00:38:23.949 --> 00:38:27.530
to express it in those terms. Thank you for saying

00:38:27.530 --> 00:38:30.610
that better than I did. I was trying to say what

00:38:30.610 --> 00:38:34.469
you just did. The story of the experience is

00:38:34.469 --> 00:38:37.510
not the experience itself. And the story is going

00:38:37.510 --> 00:38:41.010
to need a vessel. or framework, and we work with

00:38:41.010 --> 00:38:45.250
what we got. So I've been working on integrating

00:38:45.250 --> 00:38:48.030
near -death experiences with Christianity, and

00:38:48.030 --> 00:38:51.389
I also see no contradiction in terms of reincarnation,

00:38:51.570 --> 00:38:55.670
one of the red flags for Christians. My conclusion

00:38:55.670 --> 00:38:57.750
is the afterlife is a lot more complicated than

00:38:57.750 --> 00:39:01.130
I can comprehend. And even the concept of time

00:39:01.130 --> 00:39:04.269
and space, I don't even know what that is. It

00:39:04.269 --> 00:39:06.590
seems to be a product of mind and perception.

00:39:06.969 --> 00:39:13.179
And I trust that, you know, God has it all taken

00:39:13.179 --> 00:39:15.840
care of. I'm not going to worry about if I come

00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:20.360
back. I frankly don't want to. In fact, when

00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:23.699
my mom died, I sat with her and in her silence

00:39:23.699 --> 00:39:27.340
right at the last hours, I said, Mom, I'm going

00:39:27.340 --> 00:39:29.619
to have a heart -to -heart with you. Don't worry

00:39:29.619 --> 00:39:33.019
about us. You've loved us well, and you are well

00:39:33.019 --> 00:39:36.119
loved. I hope you know that. You just go. Dad

00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.119
will be there, and he'll greet you with a kiss

00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:41.179
and open arms, and you're going to have a great

00:39:41.179 --> 00:39:45.019
welcoming party. And I said, look, if reincarnation

00:39:45.019 --> 00:39:47.739
is a thing, Mom, I don't want you to even get

00:39:47.739 --> 00:39:50.340
in the lineup. This place is going crazy here.

00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:55.619
And you see, be casual about it. Be serious in

00:39:55.619 --> 00:39:59.639
your love. Be confident in God's grace and wisdom.

00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:03.840
And don't try to figure everything out. Focus

00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:06.760
on your love. You can't do any better than that.

00:40:07.539 --> 00:40:11.059
And we'll all find out one day, won't we? We

00:40:11.059 --> 00:40:12.880
will. All right, I'm going to leave you with

00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:16.019
the last word. There is somebody out there listening

00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:20.380
today, and if this is only for one person, that's

00:40:20.380 --> 00:40:23.940
fine. And that is that there's somebody out there

00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:28.159
who is grieving, wondering if a loved one who

00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:33.139
has passed recently really is still alive in

00:40:33.139 --> 00:40:37.239
some way. And is there really an afterlife after

00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:40.139
this? Would you leave us with a nice message

00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:44.260
of hope today? Sure. So for you, right, if you're

00:40:44.260 --> 00:40:47.139
watching us, you're watching this conversation

00:40:47.139 --> 00:40:49.980
and you're grieving, you're struggling. I want

00:40:49.980 --> 00:40:52.820
to say something that's really hard. God's grace

00:40:52.820 --> 00:40:55.820
will protect you from nothing, but it will sustain

00:40:55.820 --> 00:40:59.659
you through everything. God and the angels and

00:40:59.659 --> 00:41:01.739
all the entities will not protect you from the

00:41:01.739 --> 00:41:05.880
homework. the hardships of life. But they walk

00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:11.019
with you. No one is alone. And your grief is

00:41:11.019 --> 00:41:14.099
the price we pay for our love and attachment

00:41:14.099 --> 00:41:17.719
in the human form. And it is a beautiful and

00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:21.800
noble way to be broken. So I encourage you to

00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:26.699
honor your grief, to find ways to say thank you,

00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:32.219
love you, forgive me, and goodbye. see on the

00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:35.320
other side. I want to assure you of that hope.

00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:39.719
You're never alone, and all the love you've ever

00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:42.159
known is going to prepare you for the love to

00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:45.900
come. So trust the journey. Connect with your

00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:49.199
community. Slow down and take care of yourself.

00:41:50.179 --> 00:41:52.260
Thank you, David. Beautifully said. Thanks for

00:41:52.260 --> 00:41:56.079
the conversation. It's an honor. Thanks again

00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.639
for listening and sharing this podcast. Don't

00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:00.880
forget to hit the follow or subscribe button

00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:03.320
and sign up for our newsletter at roundtripdeath

00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:06.800
.com. If you want to share your near -death experience

00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:09.119
or if you have questions or comments about the

00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:12.000
show, send an email to eric at roundtripdeath

00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.179
.com. Until then, I wish you everything good

00:42:15.179 --> 00:42:17.500
that you're looking for in this life and the

00:42:17.500 --> 00:42:17.860
next.